NuVinci CVT (Automatic Gears) Hub

50 Hertz

Pedelecer
Mar 6, 2013
172
2
Sorry, but imho that's complete b*****s. If you ride above 15.5mph that's when the extra gears are actually needed. There have been many instances of people on here saying that they just didn;t feel that there were sufficient gears on their 8sp bikes once they crossed the assist threshold
Ok, don't get a cockstand.

If the 8 speed isn't geared highly enough, you can simply slip on a smaller rear sprocket. It takes about 10 minutes. A 16 tooth will give you ample top end gearing, but it will also raise the lower gear ratios. That isn't a problem though, because 1st and 2nd are hideously low anyway, so low they are useless. By fitting the smaller rear sprocket, you raise these two gears up into the useful range and benefit from higher, more useful, gearing. You effectively win at both ends of the ratio range. As stated before, but you obviously haven't decoded this bit, if the going gets too tough in the lower gears, use increased motor power to compensate.

I will repeat, 11 gear ratios are not required on a crank driven ebike. You could get away with 4 if the overall range was sufficient. The combination of the crank drive and rider input provides plenty of torque. I can only assimilate it to a diesel engine that will pull from 20 MPH to 70 MPH in 4th gear. I base this on 5 years and 13000 miles of crank driven bike riding.

Alex, please stop misleading people.


FPO
 
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103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
2,228
67
Ok, don't get a cockstand.

If the 8 speed isn't geared highly enough, you can simply slip on a smaller rear sprocket. It takes about 10 minutes. A 16 tooth will give you ample top end gearing, but it will also raise the lower gear ratios. That isn't a problem though, because 1st and 2nd are hideously low anyway, so low they are useless. By fitting the smaller rear sprocket, you raise these two gears up into the useful range and benefit from higher, more useful, gearing. You effectively win at both ends of the ratio range. As stated before, but you obviously haven't decoded this bit, if the going gets too tough in the lower gears, use increased motor power to compensate.

I will repeat, 11 gear ratios are not required on a crank driven ebike. You could get away with 4 if the overall range was sufficient. The combination of the crank drive and rider input provides plenty of torque. I can only assimilate it to a diesel engine that will pull from 20 MPH to 70 MPH in 4th gear. I base this on 5 years and 13000 miles of crank driven bike riding.

Alex, please stop misleading people.


FPO
Again a load of complete b*****s. If you raise the lowest gearing you will have a lot of fun trying to climb very steep hills on your crank drive bike. But by all means use that fix and gasp through the consequences if you ever need to use your lowest gears.

I think you need to go see someone about your anger management issues, 50Hertz. I have not commented before but I think you are one of the most argumentative and pointlessly provocative idiots I have seen on the forum in the whole time I have been reading it.

I suggest you direct your pent up issues elsewhere, preferably internally, where they will with any luck impact on their source rather than any target going. And it appears that any target will do.
 

50 Hertz

Pedelecer
Mar 6, 2013
172
2
Again a load of complete b*****s. If you raise the lowest gearing you will have a lot of fun trying to climb very steep hills on your crank drive bike. But by all means use that fix and gasp through the consequences if you ever need to use your lowest gears.
The gearing modification which I have mentioned works. It does not destroy the hill climbing ability. If you search this forum, you will see that this is a recognised and credible modification which improves the gearing and ride of the bike. Many people have done this, not just me. Please try to understand that I have an 8 speed Alfine hub gear fitted to my bike and that what I have written works. It is based on extensive experience.

Your ramblings, by contrast, seem to be rather lacking in foundation and I suspect that you are a lonely and inadequate individual who finds a certain amount of self worth through continually vomiting inaccurate information all over the forum pages. Fully research and grasp the subject matter before posting misleading information.
 

103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
2,228
67
I'd be interested in anyone else on the forum who will back up your assertions confirming that the result is as good as an 11sp Alfine with experience of both and no loss of hill climbing ability on extreme slopes which demand it. I frankly cannot see that it can. Otherwise why would you need those gears in the first place - and why do I use them on my own bike. In 'Power' mode. There is no more motor power to use. It may work on an illegal bike with high power and high torque but not on the 250W bike I have - which is hardly a slacker on the hill climbing front. I speak from sufficient experience of hills on that front to be confident in saying this.

I would ask you politely to curb your insulting tone when addressing comments at my posts. I have no problem with different views, admitting I have made mistakes or any similar issues as I am sure people who have read many of my posts know. But I have a big problem with rude and personally abusive individuals sitting behind computers addressing people they do not know in the way you do. That goes not only for myself but others I have read your replies to. It is like reading a torrent of venom and is completely uncalled for. Referring to people "vomiting" information that is widely acknowledged and appreciated with regard to the purpose of a wide range of gears and its benefits is frankly not acceptable. It is interesting to see this couched in a comparative sense with your self-appraisal. This is not a competition it is a forum where people share information and experiences with others. Or so I thought.

There is no need for derogatory verbal abuse you simply make yourself look ridiculous posting it. You decided to buy the bike you did and mod it for the conditions you ride in to suit your own requirements. The fact you had to mod it confirms that the 8sp did not serve you with the performance you think you needed. You feel you have not lost any hill climbing potential or performance doing this but what you have stated does not seem to have any basis in logic or technical explanation - or perhaps you just don't personally ride hills which would ask for 1st / 2nd gear. Perhaps you are endowed with the fitness to tackle your hills in higher gears and do not tire to the extent you drop the gearing before you reach the end. If so, then great - you are lucky.

All your replies have been couched in mudslinging and throwing stones at me for simply pointing out that an 8sp hub gear ain't enough for some riders (which it isn't) and losing gearing at the lower end of the range will impact on hill climbing in conditions where you would use those gears (which unless you can explain why it would not, I can only assume it does !).

It may be that JimB doesn't intend to include long hills in his biking in which case the 8sp with mod may be a good solution for him and another option to consider when testing one - it would have been nice if you could have just pointed that out along with the potential ups and downsides without launching an attack on other forum members to do so - or attempting to degrade and belittle other people along the way. A valid point made will be taken on board by all - why could you not just make it in a constructive way ?
 
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Artstu

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 2, 2009
2,420
925
So, Artsu, does the Macina Cross Nexus 8 have brackets for guards and carrier?
Yes it does indeed, I bought my rack and mudguards from Wiggle for around £49

KTM Ride 006.jpg

You mention pedalling downhill to the high 20s, I presume that it would be technically possible to pedal up to that speed on the level, if a rider was as fit as me for example? just trying to get an idea of the overall gearing of the bike as I see it can be supplied with a bigger battery with what appears to be a rather extravagant claim re max poss range.

BTW, my Burgman 650 goes up Winnatts without me even changing gear - CVT see:eek:

JimB
I've just tried it again and can pedal to 33 mph downhill, but that's a high cadence and an 11 speed would have helped if you really want to extract every ounce out, I'm not that bothered to be honest.
However with you stating you couldn't pedal any faster at what we believe was 26 kh/m you sound like you have a low cadence. So that could present two problems. First you may actually need the higher gears of the 11 speed, and secondly you may not be able to pedal fast enough to get full power from the bosch, it likes quite a high cadence to give you full power.

I'm sure my battery range would double if I dropped from the turbo setting to tour setting.

Lastly I don't actually know how fit you are? age, cycling background etc etc. so I can't say if you would be able to get to 20 mph on the flat, it's certainly harder than on a lighter bike. Hard to put a figure on how much slower it is, 2 to 4 mph slower than a lighter none powered bike perhaps, or possibly quite a bit more in some situations, and not noticeable on slight declines.
 

50 Hertz

Pedelecer
Mar 6, 2013
172
2
I'd be interested in anyone else on the forum who will back up your assertions confirming that the result is as good as an 11sp Alfine with experience of both and no loss of hill climbing ability on extreme slopes which demand it. I frankly cannot see that it can. Otherwise why would you need those gears in the first place - and why do I use them on my own bike.

I would ask you politely to curb your insulting tone when addressing comments at my posts. I have no problem with different views, admitting I have made mistakes or any similar issues as I am sure people who have read many of my posts know. But I have a big problem with rude and personally abusive individuals sitting behind computers addressing people they do not know in the way you do. That goes not only for myself but others I have read your replies to. It is like reading a torrent of venom and is completely uncalled for. Referring to people "vomiting" information that is widely acknowledged and appreciated with regard to the purpose of a wide range of gears and its benefits is frankly not acceptable.

There is no need for it and you simply make yourself look ridiculous. You decided to buy the bike you did and mod it for the conditions you ride in to suit your own requirements. The fact you had to mod it confirms that the 8sp did not serve you with the performance you think you needed. You feel you have not lost any hill climbing potential or performance doing this but what you have stated does not seem to have any basis in logic or technical explanation. All your replies have been couched in mudslinging and throwing stones at me for simply pointing out that an 8sp hub gear ain't enough for some riders (which it isn't) and losing gearing at the lower end of the range will impact on hill climbing in conditions where you would use those gears (which unless you can explain why it would not, I can only assume it does !).
Alex

The 8 speed hub come fitted with a 23 tooth rear sprocket on a Panasonic powered ebike. This is done purposely to limit the power cut off to 15 MPH. The down side to this is that it makes the bike very low geared and makes gears 1 2 and 3 all but useless.

Fitting a smaller sprocket moves all the gears into a useful range, where they should be. There is a lot of discussion and advice on the forum about this modification.

Look, I don't know you and you don't know me. You are probably a nice guy, I don't know. I think you would be surprised if you met me. In truth, you got up my nose a bit when you dismissed my suggestion as a load of balls.

I would like to offer you an apology for any offence caused. I have a sense of humour which some people find immensely irritating and I find humour in saying things which are poles apart from what I am actually thinking. No excuse, but sorry if I have offended you. (This isn't a joke I mean it)
 

Artstu

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 2, 2009
2,420
925
The 8 speed hub come fitted with a 23 tooth rear sprocket on a Panasonic powered ebike. This is done purposely to limit the power cut off to 15 MPH. The down side to this is that it makes the bike very low geared and makes gears 1 2 and 3 all but useless.
That bit there is the key to your differing opinions. The Bosch certainly doesn't suffer from this lower gearing and I'll hazard a guess that Alex's Impluse doesn't either.
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,671
.. If you ride above 15.5mph that's when the extra gears are actually needed. .
If you ride above 15.5mph, you need to derestrict the bike or you hit unpleasant treacle. First consideration is can you do this with your choice of bike.
Second consideration is to maximize the benefit of motor assistance. You can only get the best speed while keeping your optimal cadence with derailleur because you have a wide choice of freewheel ratios. That rules out all the Shimano hub gears unless you are lucky with your choice of bike.
 
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50 Hertz

Pedelecer
Mar 6, 2013
172
2
That bit there is the key to your differing opinions. The Bosch certainly doesn't suffer from this lower gearing and I'll hazard a guess that Alex's Impluse doesn't either.
Yes, quite probable. The Panasonic uses the motor shaft speed to determine the cut off, whereas I believe that the Bosch uses some kind of pulse system taken from the wheel. I'm not sure how the Impulse system works.
 

103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
2,228
67
50Hertz - apology accepted and explanation taken on board. Language used on forums can augment its negative impact beyond that which might be possible with the benefit of intonation or familiarity - I have made mistakes myself and had to learn from them by the reaction of others. I'm sorry if the way I have brought this out has been unpleasant but there's been a bit of a pressure cooker steaming on a number of threads recently and it would be great if we could all tone it down a bit to restore a bit of balance. Too much the other way is boring ;) .. but there are lines and it does no harm to try to agree some sometimes. A bit of mutual respect notwithstanding widely differing views on everything from bikes to morality is pretty much a pre-requisite for a happy co-existence for all.

I think Artstu has likely hit the nail on the head. I had forgotten this about the earlier Panasonic systems and actually don't know if this is still the approach used to limit power cut off. Does the sprocket mod to a smaller one raise the assist speed cutoff along with the gearing then as a side-effect ? :confused:

If you ride above 15.5mph, you need to derestrict the bike or you hit unpleasant treacle. First consideration is can you do this with your choice of bike.
I know where you're coming from and derestricting means you don't need to ride unpowered at all within reason (eBiking all the way !), but I actually don't really find treacly effects with mine until I hit over 20mph on the flat. Then it's tough work like any bike with those tyres and construction would be. I only really use the power for acceleration or longer hills when I've decelerated to below 15mph before reaching the top. Many shorter ones are taken at 17-18mph. Maybe that's why I still perspire on my crank drive and feel the need for heat and moisture-shedding clothes !

I find in the 17-20mph range my bike rides pretty much like a non-eBike of similar type would - which is actually fine... it's the pulling away and getting to speed fast and extended climbs I struggle with. On a slight downhill in higher gears the bike gallops happily away and you can ride it like you stole it well into the 20s. Gravity is a wonderful thing :cool:.
 
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JimB

Pedelecer
Apr 1, 2013
91
0
Derbyshire
Earlier on it was getting quite exciting here and after putting my pan of home made (minty, if you don't mind!) mushy peas on the cooker I got myself a bag of popcorn and a fizzy drink and sat down here to enjoy the action.

Well, only a few minutes later I went to check on the peas and they were all over the top of the cooker! The peas found gravity a wonderful thing too...after they'd climbed over the top of the pan!

Have you ever seen the consistency of dried-in mushy peas? Suffice to say that I'm packing it into tubes and selling it to Alex as thread lock.

JimB
 

103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
2,228
67
Joking aside, I might be as well to buy it, JimB - probably make as much practical difference to where I suspect it is intended for ;) ! I'm only £18 down on the tests though so can probably stretch to a few quid for some mushy pealock

I did find the thread on the rear sprocket mod out of interest though. It does seem that on the Panasonic, doing this cheats the legal cutoff assistance limit as a side-effect - so you can have a 250W bike that is effectively derestricted. So of course you get a bike that's just as illegal as having a bigger motor for steep climbing below cutoff speed, as the result of the mod would be for the bike to fail the upper speed limit test, but it's a way of doing it that's perhaps easier to pretend is compliant with the relevant legal parameters than some others.

Thinking about it - I assume such a modded bike could be slipped in to the 250W category race in Bristol and steal a march on the other competitors :eek: Maybe a derestricted category is needed for all those small rear sprocket Panasonic types :) :cool:. Or make them compete against the "moped boys" lol.

Since on Bosch & Impulse systems the gearing wasn't effectively set artificially low as a mechanism to achieve speed limitation compliance, and this is achieved through other means, I think previous posts indicating that the mod may have different effects on bikes with these systems are likely correct.

After all the views it'll be really interesting to hear back how you get on and what your own feelings are after riding the various bikes. Do take 'em for a good long ride and put them through their paces though .. it's amazing the aspects you don't pick up on till you really get them out on the road - both good and bad.
 
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50 Hertz

Pedelecer
Mar 6, 2013
172
2
Fitting a smaller rear sprocket does lift the motor cut off speed. A 22 tooth gives a cut off speed of 15 MPH and I think the power starts to taper down from about 12 MPH. At the other end of the scale, a 16 tooth rear sprocket will give a motor cut off of about 20 MPH, tapering down from about 17 MPH. I use a 20 tooth which gives a motor cut off at 16.5 MPH, with the power starting to taper down from about 13.5 MPH until it reaches zero at 16.5 MPH.

The bike would be at its best with an 18 tooth rear sprocket in terms of gearing, range and pedal cadence, but the cut off speed would be too high for me to be comfortable with. I only use the bike in low power mode, so the assistance between 15 and 16.5 MPH will only be a few Watts. I'm confident that the bike would stand scrutiny if examined by an official agency.
 

JimB

Pedelecer
Apr 1, 2013
91
0
Derbyshire
Jim did you miss my reply?
No Artstu (can we call you Stu? Easier to type) I didn't want to start that response in case it disturbed the dust settling which I was waiting for (I should have PMd you)and then it was late and I was a bit fed up (despite the malt) after the dinner debacle. This morning I'm chewing over what went wrong with my first attempt at sourdough bread which I made yesterday in between bouts at the cycling arena.

Regarding my statistics, I'm happy to reveal all but have to first warn against coming to any real conclusions from what will actually be fairly limited information.

I am 67. I weigh 85 kilos (down by nearly 10 since January this year).

I suffered Angina about 8 years ago and this was treated by the insertion of two stents and I have had no recurrence of the Angina. I have, however, had two official heart attacks although were of the minor variety (still not a fun occasion!) and no surgery was deemed necessary.
During investigation of the second hospital admission (early 2012) it was eventually found that although my arteries were no worse (sic) than they were when the stents were put in one of the stents had itself started to clog (some sort of calcification rather than fat based build up).

This business is largely a hereditary issue, my father suffered from angina and having opted not to have any heart surgery when it was offered died (quite a bit older than I am now) of congestive heart failure.

Anyway, around the time of the angina 8 years ago I bought a cross trainer and I have put in quite a lot of time on that plus other activities (of the exercise variety) in the spare room we refer to as the Gym. I use a target heart rate program and until recently used a target heart rate of 140. That gave ne a good workout despite me being on beta blockers and a myriad other pills but recently had to reduce that to 120 when I started participation in a voluntary trial of a new beta blocker (in addition to the existing one) and found that trying to get my heart rate to 140 was tantamount to making a suicide attempt!

just to explain in case our readers are unaware of how these things work - I wear a cardiac chest monitor which transmits my heart rate to the cross trainer which then uses magnetic resistance to increase my workload, in steps, until my heart rate reaches the predetermined target. If my actual heart rate exceeds the target the machine reduces the magnetic resistance in steps to bring the heart rate back...and so on.

I have, in the recent past, done an hour at a time each day for a fortnight with the 140 target and I assure that that's quite a lot of work. It's boredom more than anything else which prevented more and I now do rather shorter but higher intensity sessions coupled with the addition of a variety of other exercises gleaned from cardio rehab sessions. I also use a rowing machine which is even more boring than the cross trainer.

Now that I'm being almost deafened by the sound of yawning I'll move slightly back towards bikes...the cadence rate that I'm happiest with on the cross trainer (which produces action in the arms and legs which is akin to cross country skiing) is 50.

I've used that rate for so long I have a pretty good idea what it feels like and I am absolutely sure therefore that when I was on the Macina Bold and it was for me maxed out my cadence rate was much higher than 50, I would say 60 upwards but who knows? I know it was a rate that was so high that I definitely wouldn't want to maintain it to achieve progress on a bike. It wasn't energy sapping, just incompatible with the concept of the activity being enjoyable.

My cycling background is not exactly a glorious one. Apart from the 3 speed Rudge Whitworth (I think) "All Steel Bicycle" (and it bleedin' felt like it!) my father donated to me when I was a youth the next bike I had was when I was around 40...a very nice Raleigh Royal 21 speed derailleur which gave way a few years back for a pair of wait for it....wait for it....Claud Butler hybrid 24 speed jobs. Hardly in the same league as the previous bikes but easier to gear shift (for less tech of the pair) and quite well suited to the sort of riding we do...when we do it.

I've done very many more miles on the cross trainer than I've done on the bikes over the 27 years we've had the bikes. But I don't believe that passes the 'so what?' test. I believe I am above average fitness for my age. Maybe not above average for regular long distance cyclists of my age.

And there you just about have it.

Now then, I can hear a chorus of 'what the heck do you want an electric bike (never mind a bleedin' expensive one) for if you don't even use the ones you've got now?'

The answer is many....I like bikes, I've got a Burgman 650 Executive that's been out of the garage once this year so far .. although I may sell it if I get the electrics. But I like sitting on it and making engine noises. I might just sit on the electric bikes and make whirring noises .... I have no intention of being the richest stiff in the cemetery ..... I like gadgets .... he who dies with the biggest number of toys wins ......
In short, it doesn't matter.

I am fully cognisant of the fact that most buying decisions are emotional rather than logical. I'm affected by that as much as anyone despite a career selling and still have to make a determined effort to keep the emotional aspect in check...but gaaawwwwd don't you just love waiting for that van to turn up?

;)

So there you have it Stu....a physical and emotional cripple.

You'll have to pick the bones out of that 'cos, despite appearances, I hate typing, my fingers already hurt and I've soon got to start creating Mexican Carnitas for slow cooked pork tacos for tonight's feast (why are all my interests so time consuming?).

JimB
 
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trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,671
correct me please if I am wrong, 26" wheel Bosch motor driven bikes have 32 tooth front ring and 11+ tooth rear sprocket will result in a cadence of 68+ at 15.5mph, is it not too high for you jimB?
 

JimB

Pedelecer
Apr 1, 2013
91
0
Derbyshire
I don't understand the question.

Are you asking whether I'm physically capable of achieving cadence of 68+?

If that is the question the answer is - yes I am, but I don't like it much.

JimB