Not street legal!

[AshleyBrayson]

Why do I keep seeing adverts for 'street legal in europe' 750 watt ebikes when the limit is 250? Or is it just the UK that it's 250?

 

[Danidl]

Why do I keep seeing adverts for 'street legal in europe' 750 watt ebikes when the limit is 250? Or is it just the UK that it's 250?

Short answer people lie. They tell untruths and half truths . The real truth is more nuanced.
Any vehicle with wheels can be street legal if one goes about taxing and getting official authorisation for it...
But what is intended to be inferred by that comment was does it meet European standards for registration as a pedelec...and there are nicely written standards for that.

 

[flecc]

It's 250 watts throughout the EU and in many other countries, including Japan, China where it's being phased in, Switzerland, Norway, Iceland and in Australian federal law.

The main exceptions are US federal law which is 750 watts, though that is often varied by state laws, and New Zealand where it's 300 watts.
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[chris_n]

It's 250 watts throughout the EU and in many other countries, including Japan, China where it's being phased in, Switzerland, Norway, Iceland and in Australian federal law.

The main exceptions are US federal law which is 750 watts, though that is often varied by state laws, and New Zealand where it's 300 watts.
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600W in Austria!

 

[flecc]

600W in Austria!

But that's not a pedelec. Austria is in the EU whch has a mandatory 250 watts rating limit for all countries, embodied in the 168/2013 Two and Three Wheeler Type Approval Regulations.

I daresay those 600 watt machines have extra requirements like insurance, registration etc., and they do have to be type approved, which pedelecs don't have to be.
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[horseunderwater]

this is from wikipedia

In Austria, S-Pedelecs (power-assisted pedalling up to 45 km/h) are not classified as bicycles. Whether they lit at best as moped According to Article 1 paragraph 2. A) Directive 2002/24/EC (or as motorbike § 2 Abs 1 line 14 KFG) are typable and registered as a motor vehicle can be driven, so far

 

[flecc]

this is from wikipedia

In Austria, S-Pedelecs (power-assisted pedalling up to 45 km/h) are not classified as bicycles. Whether they lit at best as moped According to Article 1 paragraph 2. A) Directive 2002/24/EC (or as motorbike § 2 Abs 1 line 14 KFG) are typable and registered as a motor vehicle can be driven, so far

That's correct, though the article isn't fully up to date.

2024/24/EC is now incorporated within and replaced by 168/2013, as mentioned in my previous post.
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[anotherkiwi]

The calcul for s-pedelec power varies from country to country Austria and Switzerland being the most generous. That may have something to do with the Alps? The flatter countries allow 350 W, 450 W or 500 W nominative. In some countries throttles are allowed to 20 km/h and others to full speed (45 km/h). s-pedelec regulations were messier than pedelec regulations but I think they will be harmonised one of these days.

Still no specific s-pedelec regulations in France where they are still mopeds

 

[Powerbikes]

If you focus on this one point:

"has a maximum continuous rated power which does not exceed 250 watts;”

Then in theory you can have a motor that can peak at 1000W but if it has a continuous rating of 250W then it's legal.

Bosch CX Motors we all know are fully road legal but have a peak way over 250W. It's just their continuous rating that is 250w.

This is the same for many motors available. However some manufacturers will take full advantage of this and interpret it how suits them.

Bottom line is when manufacturers are marketing their product sometimes you have to take the figures with a pinch of salt. With a little research you can normally find out if they are giving you the continuous or peak wattage. If it's 750W continuous then yeah, it doesn't meet regulations.

 

[anotherkiwi]

If you focus on this one point:

"has a maximum continuous rated power which does not exceed 250 watts;”

Then in theory you can have a motor that can peak at 1000W but if it has a continuous rating of 250W then it's legal.

Bosch CX Motors we all know are fully road legal but have a peak way over 250W. It's just their continuous rating that is 250w.

This is the same for many motors available. However some manufacturers will take full advantage of this and interpret it how suits them.

Bottom line is when manufacturers are marketing their product sometimes you have to take the figures with a pinch of salt. With a little research you can normally find out if they are giving you the continuous or peak wattage. If it's 750W continuous then yeah, it doesn't meet regulations.

It has to be able to run for 1 hour at 250 W continuous power with 2 degree Kelvin variation in temperature to meet EN15194 norms. (paragraph 4.2.7)

Many geared hub motors can run at 1500 W for considerable periods of time without getting hot enough to weaken the nylon gears if you put a bit of automatic transmission fluid in them. This helps disperse heat and also lubricates gears and bearings. DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!

 

[danielrlee]

It has to be able to run for 1 hour at 250 W continuous power with 2 degree Kelvin variation in temperature to meet EN15194 norms. (paragraph 4.2.7)

Just to clarify, is that a maximum or minimum allowance of a 2 degree Kelvin variation in temperature?

My suspicion is that it is a maximum allowance, since I think that the motor rating part of EN15194 was defined in order to stop manufacturers overrating their motors due to a trend of 'wattage rating inflation' at the time, rather than being an absolute operational limitation.

This is also why a manufacturer is able to slap a 250W label on a 5000W motor and make it EU road legal.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

All the tests called up from EN15194 are for over-rating. There's nothing to stop a motor manufacturer under-rating their motor.

Instead of power, they all express the motor's power in terms of torque. Torque is related directly to current, so the only way they can increase the torque at normal pedal speed is to increase the current. They all use the same 36v, volts x amps = power. As far as I can figure, Bosch and Yamaha are using around 20 amps. Brose must have gone up to around 22 amps,, to get their 110Nm, which is approximately 880w from the battery at full power, though it wouldn't be able to sustain that without over-heating.

 

[anotherkiwi]

I am wondering if I am going to make my trike into a L1e A "powered cycle" - speed cut off at 25km/h and motor to 1000W. The only thing it seems to require beyond a pedelec is a number plate holder, so it would have to go through the French registration procedure. No type approval required because it is a recumbent trike. Individual presentation to testing authority allowed. Just needs a plate stating speed: 25 km/h and power: xxxx W

I guess that with a BBSHD and 48v it would be able to climb much anything I can point it at at the cutoff speed of 25km/h?

 

[Kudoscycles]

Its been said before that 1000 watt direct drive motors at slow speed have very poor torque. These are the norm in the mini mopeds that are sold widely in Asia,you see hundreds at every major junction,the riders pedal furiously to get them up to speed. Once they hit about 12 mph it is easy to get them up to 20 mph and maintain that speed,they continue to gather speed slowly which makes them dangerous because the rider is desperate to maintain momentum so they weave within the traffic and go round sharp corners too fast,they dont have very good brakes,lots of accidents.
Overal a 250 watt geared motor is better.
KudosDave

 

[danielrlee]

Its been said before that 1000 watt direct drive motors at slow speed have very poor torque. These are the norm in the mini mopeds that are sold widely in Asia,you see hundreds at every major junction,the riders pedal furiously to get them up to speed. Once they hit about 12 mph it is easy to get them up to 20 mph and maintain that speed,they continue to gather speed slowly which makes them dangerous because the rider is desperate to maintain momentum so they weave within the traffic and go round sharp corners too fast,they dont have very good brakes,lots of accidents.
Overal a 250 watt geared motor is better.
KudosDave

"Better" at what? Quite simply, it's all about suitability.

There's a reason why almost anyone that builds a high power street bike opts for a large, heavy direct drive motor. Although they might have a lower Kt rating, they are capable of more torque than a 250W geared motor by an order of magnitude due to the very nature of their huge power handling capability.

There's most definitely a place for direct drive motors. It's just that pootling around at 15-20 mph is not it. To say that low-speed torque is lacking though is simply incorrect. You just need to give them enough power.