This issue must be costing 50cycles sales. I was very tempted to buy one of their products because I knew that the bikes themselves have a good reputation. It was the question mark over the lithium batteries that persuaded me not to do so. If there had been a NiMh alternative readily available then they would have got another sale.
News: eZee Torq Trekking long distance test
- Thread starter rsscott
- Start date
Two Sorts Of Truth Then
There's a contradiction here somewhere.
Peter
Why then are NiMH in such short supply (and now it seems Lithium too - see 50 cycles web site) if eZee (Mr Ching) can supply them if ordered (Quote: NiMH I can supply as much as you like").
There's a contradiction here somewhere.
Peter
I would hate to accuse anybody of not telling the truth on this issue but I agree it does not add up. I just wish they would sort it out as it is in all party's interest. 50 cycles can you assure us that you have NiMH batteries on back order? Or is all your energy going into the Kahlkoff range?
I'm sure no-one is lying. This feels like another failure of the business model.
I'm sure that what Ezee is saying is true and would be surprised if 50 Cycles has actually said anything untrue, although they may have subtly misled people by implying NiMH batteries were impossible to get hold of. (Please note I have not checked back every statement, and do not intend to do so, and therefore will apologise profoundly if there has not been any such subtle misleading - all I am trying to do is to set out the business reasons why this situation is almost inevitable to come about)
Ezee outsources its UK distribution to 50 Cycles, which I assume to be a small but high growth business. I would expect such a business at this stage of its life to be cash constrained. Therefore it has to choose between alternative uses of its cash, and, to represent best interest of its shareholders, it must make the choice that it believes is likely to maximise profits in the long run (taking into account any customer dissatisfaction which may ensue). Faced with the following three choices, what would you do:
1. Invest in buying expensive spare parts (ie batteries) for a small minority of your most sophisticated customers. For these parts there is a particularly long lead time from you parting with the cash to receiving these parts, the price of them is volatile and your customers may resist your attempts to pass on price increases. Also these parts earn you lower profits than the ones that you have in stock (ie lithiums).
2. Invest in buying more finished product (eg Torqs, F-Series, etc) to sell to new customers who want a bike before the peak Christmas sales period.
3. Invest in buying stock to launch a new, high profile model which has received excellent reviews (ie Agutta) and which complements your existing range very well, enabling you to target a different customer segment who might not otherwise buy from you.
4. Combine 2 and 3 above with soothing words for the small number of your customers who want the awkward to obtain spares, and blame the global shortage of raw materials.
There are few people who would not be very tempted by option 4, and I would not blame them, from a business perspective.
This problem is solved in other markets by having alternative sources of funding so that 50 Cycles does not have to make such choices regarding use of its cash. For example, in other markets, the manufacturer will often retain ownership of the stock until it is sold. I do not believe Ezee or other bike manufacturers do this. If it did, 50 Cycles would not be cash constrained and could invest in batteries. Also in other markets, the distributor would not attempt to operate as a vertically integrated retailer, enabling other, better-funded retailers to invest their cash in buying up the spares, should they see it as an attractive way to compete.
Please also note that this is all inference on my part based on how businesses in general work but not based on any specific knowledge of Ezee or 50 Cycles. Therefore it may be wrong but it seems to fit the facts!
Frank
I'm sure that what Ezee is saying is true and would be surprised if 50 Cycles has actually said anything untrue, although they may have subtly misled people by implying NiMH batteries were impossible to get hold of. (Please note I have not checked back every statement, and do not intend to do so, and therefore will apologise profoundly if there has not been any such subtle misleading - all I am trying to do is to set out the business reasons why this situation is almost inevitable to come about)
Ezee outsources its UK distribution to 50 Cycles, which I assume to be a small but high growth business. I would expect such a business at this stage of its life to be cash constrained. Therefore it has to choose between alternative uses of its cash, and, to represent best interest of its shareholders, it must make the choice that it believes is likely to maximise profits in the long run (taking into account any customer dissatisfaction which may ensue). Faced with the following three choices, what would you do:
1. Invest in buying expensive spare parts (ie batteries) for a small minority of your most sophisticated customers. For these parts there is a particularly long lead time from you parting with the cash to receiving these parts, the price of them is volatile and your customers may resist your attempts to pass on price increases. Also these parts earn you lower profits than the ones that you have in stock (ie lithiums).
2. Invest in buying more finished product (eg Torqs, F-Series, etc) to sell to new customers who want a bike before the peak Christmas sales period.
3. Invest in buying stock to launch a new, high profile model which has received excellent reviews (ie Agutta) and which complements your existing range very well, enabling you to target a different customer segment who might not otherwise buy from you.
4. Combine 2 and 3 above with soothing words for the small number of your customers who want the awkward to obtain spares, and blame the global shortage of raw materials.
There are few people who would not be very tempted by option 4, and I would not blame them, from a business perspective.
This problem is solved in other markets by having alternative sources of funding so that 50 Cycles does not have to make such choices regarding use of its cash. For example, in other markets, the manufacturer will often retain ownership of the stock until it is sold. I do not believe Ezee or other bike manufacturers do this. If it did, 50 Cycles would not be cash constrained and could invest in batteries. Also in other markets, the distributor would not attempt to operate as a vertically integrated retailer, enabling other, better-funded retailers to invest their cash in buying up the spares, should they see it as an attractive way to compete.
Please also note that this is all inference on my part based on how businesses in general work but not based on any specific knowledge of Ezee or 50 Cycles. Therefore it may be wrong but it seems to fit the facts!
Frank
Not intentionally Nick, that wasn't clear from what you said, and this thread is on the battery issue, hence my taking it that way. I'm anxious that there should be no hint of "letting off the hook" on this issue, it's gone on too long already and the alibis and excuses like Mr Chings opening post should have stopped long ago.
We aren't alone in this, the US market is just as fed up with these Li-ions and dealers there like Nycewheels are again supplying NiMh.
As you've rightly said, the eZee business will fail on this one issue if there's not a rapid return to NiMh on all models, of that there's no doubt. All but two were designed with NiMh and worked so well with those that the bikes jumped to the top in desirability. Since the introduction of Li-ion, all that status has been lost and huge damage done to the eZee company.
I repeat, it's not just an after market issue, the bikes should come with NiMh as standard until such time as a fully working and lasting Li-ion battery becomes available, if ever.
.
I'm afraid that's the right paragraph Frank. As my preceding post shows, it doesn't fit the facts, this is absolutely not a minority of sophisticated customers, it's all customers, both here and overseas.
Statements that the majority have no trouble don't wash when we can't be supplied with those magic batteries that they apparently get.
Once again I say, please no more alibis, it's less than helpful when a solution to a very real problem has been wanted for a year now.
Finally, there's lying, and there's not telling the whole truth.
.
I have no doubt that there are serious problems with Lithium batteries and that 50 Cycles 'should' revert to NiMH
However I believe that it is only a small but vocal minority of customers (including those on this site) who are aware of this, because I believe most customers do not use the products in a sufficiently demanding way to become aware of it. I accept that this detail may be wrong (as I do not have the data to support the view in this specific instance - it is just drawn from general experience of a vocal minority noticing a problem and a silent minority not being aware of it), but the rest of my analysis still holds - that this situation is one of the failures made almost inevitable by a flawed business model.
Apart from my first assertion that I did not think Ezee or 50 Cycles were lying. Clearly, if most of their customers were actually complaining about the batteries, they would be wrongly asserting the opposite.
However I believe that it is only a small but vocal minority of customers (including those on this site) who are aware of this, because I believe most customers do not use the products in a sufficiently demanding way to become aware of it. I accept that this detail may be wrong (as I do not have the data to support the view in this specific instance - it is just drawn from general experience of a vocal minority noticing a problem and a silent minority not being aware of it), but the rest of my analysis still holds - that this situation is one of the failures made almost inevitable by a flawed business model.
Apart from my first assertion that I did not think Ezee or 50 Cycles were lying. Clearly, if most of their customers were actually complaining about the batteries, they would be wrongly asserting the opposite.
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Sorry Frank, this is absolutely not the case.
On long or steep hills the cut outs occur very early in life, my first on the last battery was just after it was run in at a week old. Even in quite flat area conditions, the troubles start after a very few months as commuter Aran has shown for example. Some of these users find this forum as a result of the problems, searching for answers.
Owners like Bersh in the USA and Gaynor here in the UK, both very recently bitterly complaining about this issue, would be surprised to be thought of as one of an especially sophisticated group, they just bought their bikes to carry out their journeys. Just using the bikes normally is enough, they don't have to be used in a demanding way.
The owners know the facts and want a solution. After all the excuses to date, they don't need any more.
.
Hi flecc,
I kind of doubt that Mr Ching has heard of Gerald Ratner. I suspect 50 cycles must be wondering whether to flog on with this or concentrate on Kahlkoff. Me, I have ordered some NiMH cells and a charger, but from another source.
Nick
Dear all,
Considering the comprehensive drubbing of all things lithium on this and many other threads, do you think the two year warranty on the Agattu lithium battery will stand up to scrutiny? I understand that the power system is compeletely different from that of the Ezee range, however, the paying customer can't help but worry about the reliability of such a critical part of the electric bike experence. Potentially, this could impact adversely (again) on 50 cycles as they may end up with more disgruntled customers chasing free replacement batteries. If there is any doubt about Lithium and the Agattu, should Kalkhoff consider transferring ( are they compatible?)
In relation to the Ezee issue, you've got to feel for 50 cycles who are trying their best to establish themeselves as market leaders in a highly volatile sector. They have to cope with a hell of a lot (logistics, difficult suppliers, language and cultural barriers, cash flow issues, risk management etc) and, so far, in my experience, they are doing a very good job indeed to raise quality, standards and the profile of this relatively new industry. However, I do agree that failure to respond effectively to customer demands, particularly from highly influential and well-respected customers (you know who you are!!) is commercial suicide. If the people want NIMh batteries that is what the company should deliver. I don't know if they have a local Chinese agent on the ground who could cut through the cultural and business BS and persuade the Ezee boss to get his finger out. Alternatively, could they outsource? Come on guys, sort it out.. You can do it! Listen to what the experts are telling you..
Tom
musicbooks
Considering the comprehensive drubbing of all things lithium on this and many other threads, do you think the two year warranty on the Agattu lithium battery will stand up to scrutiny? I understand that the power system is compeletely different from that of the Ezee range, however, the paying customer can't help but worry about the reliability of such a critical part of the electric bike experence. Potentially, this could impact adversely (again) on 50 cycles as they may end up with more disgruntled customers chasing free replacement batteries. If there is any doubt about Lithium and the Agattu, should Kalkhoff consider transferring ( are they compatible?)
In relation to the Ezee issue, you've got to feel for 50 cycles who are trying their best to establish themeselves as market leaders in a highly volatile sector. They have to cope with a hell of a lot (logistics, difficult suppliers, language and cultural barriers, cash flow issues, risk management etc) and, so far, in my experience, they are doing a very good job indeed to raise quality, standards and the profile of this relatively new industry. However, I do agree that failure to respond effectively to customer demands, particularly from highly influential and well-respected customers (you know who you are!!) is commercial suicide. If the people want NIMh batteries that is what the company should deliver. I don't know if they have a local Chinese agent on the ground who could cut through the cultural and business BS and persuade the Ezee boss to get his finger out. Alternatively, could they outsource? Come on guys, sort it out.. You can do it! Listen to what the experts are telling you..
Tom
musicbooks
At least with the Kalkhoff/Panasonic, the Li-ion works perfectly. A seven mile near continuous climb and a number of 20% climbs have proved that point to my complete satisfaction, and I'd happily buy those batteries.
.
Dear all,
Considering the comprehensive drubbing of all things lithium on this and many other threads, do you believe the two year warranty on the Agattu lithium battery will stand up to scrutiny? I understand that the power system is compeletely different from that of the Ezee range, and Flecc has demonstrated greater compatibility. However, the paying customer can't help but worry about the reliability of such a critical part of the electric bike experence. Potentially, this could impact adversely (again) on 50 cycles as they may end up with more disgruntled customers chasing free replacement batteries. If there is any doubt about Lithium and the Agattu, should Kalkhoff consider transferring (or is that impossible or pointless?)
In relation to the Ezee issue, you've got to feel for 50 cycles who are trying their best to establish themeselves as market leaders in a highly volatile sector. They have to cope with a hell of a lot (logistics, difficult suppliers, language and cultural barriers, cash flow issues, risk management etc) and, so far, in my experience, they are doing a very good job indeed to raise quality, standards and the profile of this relatively new industry. However, I do agree that failure to respond effectively to customer demands, particularly from highly influential and well-respected customers (you know who you are!!) is commercial suicide. If the people want NIMh batteries that is what the company should deliver. I don't know if they have a local Chinese agent on the ground who could cut through the cultural and business BS and persuade the Ezee boss to get his finger out. Alternatively, could they outsource? Come on guys, sort it out.. You can do it! Listen to what the experts are telling you..
Tom
musicbooks
Considering the comprehensive drubbing of all things lithium on this and many other threads, do you believe the two year warranty on the Agattu lithium battery will stand up to scrutiny? I understand that the power system is compeletely different from that of the Ezee range, and Flecc has demonstrated greater compatibility. However, the paying customer can't help but worry about the reliability of such a critical part of the electric bike experence. Potentially, this could impact adversely (again) on 50 cycles as they may end up with more disgruntled customers chasing free replacement batteries. If there is any doubt about Lithium and the Agattu, should Kalkhoff consider transferring (or is that impossible or pointless?)
In relation to the Ezee issue, you've got to feel for 50 cycles who are trying their best to establish themeselves as market leaders in a highly volatile sector. They have to cope with a hell of a lot (logistics, difficult suppliers, language and cultural barriers, cash flow issues, risk management etc) and, so far, in my experience, they are doing a very good job indeed to raise quality, standards and the profile of this relatively new industry. However, I do agree that failure to respond effectively to customer demands, particularly from highly influential and well-respected customers (you know who you are!!) is commercial suicide. If the people want NIMh batteries that is what the company should deliver. I don't know if they have a local Chinese agent on the ground who could cut through the cultural and business BS and persuade the Ezee boss to get his finger out. Alternatively, could they outsource? Come on guys, sort it out.. You can do it! Listen to what the experts are telling you..
Tom
musicbooks
apologies for the multiple entry
Not sure why, but this entry has appeared twice.. I think I may have been timed out
Apologies folks
Not sure why, but this entry has appeared twice.. I think I may have been timed out
Apologies folks
Yes. As I've just posted above, I would be confident about buying those. The best designed Li-ion applications do work and last, we've seen that with BionX for example. With those, the batteries are more expensive, but they pay back in longer life. It's a question of getting the power unit demand, the battery, the controller and the controlling software to all match up perfectly to the task. Panasonic's expertise can no doubt do that. The BionX controlling system was developed by another big player, the Chrysler Corporation, following the increasing alarm about future oil supplies, the quality Li-ion battery added to that excellent system later.
As I posted earlier, 50cycles are trying to outsource currently.
P.S. If you use the Edit button on your last post, then the delete option, you'll see a Delete this Post option to take.
.
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Undoubtably I think diversifying is a very good decision especially when you are presented with a bike as good as the Kahlkoff - I don't know if they have signed a deal that makes them exclusive retailers or not. They have even got me thinking about buying another bike even though (apart from the battery) I am pretty happy with the Torq.
Whenever I have talked to 50 cycles they have been helpful and open about the problems of supplying NiMH - always the best policy - but that is why I am confused by Mr Chings comments. Apparently there were, at the end of November, 20 people on a waiting list for NiMH batteries. One note of warning though, I got a hint they they think that this forum has stoked up demand for the NiMHs, something I don't believe (however popular we are) and as Flecc says it is more than likely that it is people looking for a solution to the cutting out problem. Try putting "Torq cutting out" into asearch engine and see what you find. Interestingly A to B had a letter from a Sprint rider with a poorly Li-ion battery (after 6 months) and I am pretty sure he isn't (or wasn't) part of this forum.
On your final note, let us know how you get on with building your own pack. From my perspective I would say it is expensive and risky - how do you ascertain the quality of the cells you buy? Also I am sure I am capable of making up a pack but we are the exceptions and most people wouldn't attempt it.
Sorry Flecc.. missed your outsource info. There is a possibility of course that this may antagonise their supplier..I get a sense of a growing polarisation of corporate values
C
Critical Mass
Guest
In response to a personal inquiry, WaiWon Ching has previously assured us that Ezee will supply as many NiMH batteries as 50CC order but that ...
Whereas 50CC have said that they have no NiMH batteries because they have been let down by their supplier (i.e. Ezee Bikes).
Its difficult to know what to believe. I am waiting for a NiMH battery for a Sprint which I recently bought on Ebay. I already have a battery which will do about 20 miles, but I want a second to allow longer journeys. Having to wait an indefinite period for that battery is extremely inconvenient and frustrating.
A friend of mine has bought a Mistral from Synergie. The battery it uses is a 36V 10 amp hour Lithium ion. I don't know what chemistry it uses but the manufacturer is Phylion (Which I believe Flecc said to be the manufacturer Ezee uses). A spare one costs £158 including VAT and delivery. Now I know that given the relatively low price, it could not possibly match Ezee's Li batteries for quality.. and it is in a different case, so securing it on the bike would be a problem, and it uses different connectors. But if anyone is getting desperate for a battery for their Ezee bike - might it not be worth getting one of the Synergie batteries and adapting it?
And the existance of a (sort of) competing supplier might encourage 50CC and Ezee to focus on overcoming whatever communication problems they are having.
Des
"50cyles have not placed their order according to our well defined procedures and they end up without stock of NiMH battery supply it is entirely their own doing and nothing to do with us in that sense."
Whereas 50CC have said that they have no NiMH batteries because they have been let down by their supplier (i.e. Ezee Bikes).
Its difficult to know what to believe. I am waiting for a NiMH battery for a Sprint which I recently bought on Ebay. I already have a battery which will do about 20 miles, but I want a second to allow longer journeys. Having to wait an indefinite period for that battery is extremely inconvenient and frustrating.
A friend of mine has bought a Mistral from Synergie. The battery it uses is a 36V 10 amp hour Lithium ion. I don't know what chemistry it uses but the manufacturer is Phylion (Which I believe Flecc said to be the manufacturer Ezee uses). A spare one costs £158 including VAT and delivery. Now I know that given the relatively low price, it could not possibly match Ezee's Li batteries for quality.. and it is in a different case, so securing it on the bike would be a problem, and it uses different connectors. But if anyone is getting desperate for a battery for their Ezee bike - might it not be worth getting one of the Synergie batteries and adapting it?
And the existance of a (sort of) competing supplier might encourage 50CC and Ezee to focus on overcoming whatever communication problems they are having.
Des
Like A to B who only publish sample letters, I get loads of communication direct via the Contact button on my Torq and Quando website that people find when they Google for Torq battery etc. Those are all the ones that don't get noticed, and that's why I'm so familiar with what's happening on this issue in other countries like the USA.
.
Same company Des, so virtually certain to be the same cells. The cut out voltage/current settings are unlikely to match another make, and the powerful eZee motor's very high current demand will still be permitted by the eZee controller, so failure is very likely.
.
Flecc,
I can have no basis for disagreeing with your view that it is the majority of Ezee customers who are facing this problem as you have far better evidence than me. That wasn't the main point I was trying to make as, in my view, even if it were only a minority, their/your rights to have a functioning product would be as valid as if it were eveyone.
If it is the majority, it does, regrettably, force us to conclude that Ezee and 50 Cycles have been dishonest in their statements, which is never a pleasant conclusion to arrive at.
Trying to think of a solution, has anyone tried approaching Mr Ching directly to order an NiMH battery? I can't see why he wouldn't want to step in to support the reputation of his product by satisfying this demand at a profit to Ezee.
Frank
I can have no basis for disagreeing with your view that it is the majority of Ezee customers who are facing this problem as you have far better evidence than me. That wasn't the main point I was trying to make as, in my view, even if it were only a minority, their/your rights to have a functioning product would be as valid as if it were eveyone.
If it is the majority, it does, regrettably, force us to conclude that Ezee and 50 Cycles have been dishonest in their statements, which is never a pleasant conclusion to arrive at.
Trying to think of a solution, has anyone tried approaching Mr Ching directly to order an NiMH battery? I can't see why he wouldn't want to step in to support the reputation of his product by satisfying this demand at a profit to Ezee.
Frank
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