News: eZee Torq Trekking long distance test

Wai Won Ching, the big boss of eZee bikes has very kindly put together an article detailing his long distance bike ride on the new eZee Torq Trekking. You can read full details of his trip to date here:

 

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/articles/88/1/eZee-Torq-Trekking-is-put-through-its-paces-from-Shanghai-to-Wuhan/Page1.html

Mr Ching doesn't understand anyone getting cut-offs?

 

The simple answer as to why he didn't get them is that he used the EAF set at just over half power.

 

That's like buying a six cylinder car and removing two spark plugs to reduce it's power to a bit over a half.

 

That's like buying a pint of beer and throwing half a pint away.

 

When I buy something I expect to use what it provides in it's specification, not only use it at the specification level of an inferior product. To do the latter I'd save money by buying the lower spec item in the first place.

 

The fact is that if the battery was adequate, EAF wouldn't be necessary and riders would be free to use the full throttle range without fear of cut-out. Of course it isn't adequate, so we use NiMh instead, which is.

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Edited November 19, 200718 yr by flecc

Hmm, It sounds like a fun ride but I'm not quite sure what to take from that report.

 

I could conclude that Mr Ching has reassured me that his customers who report Lithium battery problems are imagining it, so I could go ahead and order one with no concerns;

 

Alternatively I could conclude that Mr Ching isn't interested in trying to understand the messages he gets from customers;

 

Or even that he believes a broken spoke every 1,000 miles is par for the course with his bikes

 

I think I'll just go for the last two, and be thankful that I haven't bought an Ezee bike!

 

Frank

Yes, it as a good ride, and I'd have been happy to have positively acknowledged what was done if that last paragraph had not been included.

 

But he can hardly expect any praise when he posts in such a way, apparently believing that we are stupid enough to fall for such a transparent device as using the EAF.

 

This of course is the man who refuses to communicate with me since I dared to legitimately criticise his battery's performance under load.

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That's a shame as I am sure both he and his customers would have benefitted in the long run from such communication. I guess there are some things that someone who has made a decision to sell lithium batteries just doesn't want to hear...

 

The other point which no doubt helped him to get up those hills was that he selected 5 brand new batteries from stock, which will be performing at their peak.

 

I would not dare speculate on what happened to those batteries at the end of his trip!

All very disappointing and it does not fill me with confidence in the company.

 

On another matter, that passage about the Ramada Hotel is bizarre. They attempted to force their way into the hotel having been told not to, then expected the hotel to look after their bikes for a few months before finally telling the manager that they would leave the bikes whether the hotel liked it or not?!?!

 

I wonder how the batteries would perform after a few months at the bottom of the Yangtze river, which is where I would expect Mr Ching to find his bikes next March.

 

Django

Hi all,

 

Wai Won has asked me to post this reply in the forum:

 

 

I was just sharing my experience, nothing more.

a) I have no bias for any battery, whether it is NiMH or Li+ in any form. I did not stop the supply of NiMH, it was the customers who decided what they wanted to buy. eZee has been continuously evaluating new battery types and from many suppliers.

b) Obviously on such a trip I would take new battery packs and to gather data on it, and I have clearly stated it is so, why some people won't like to hear that, It beats me.

c) If a weak 57 yrs old man like me could climb over those mountains, at half throttle, it says all that need to be said.

There are obvious limits to a 250/350 watt motor and a pack of battery, and if powers get cutted off it is more a case of a weak battery.

On the bike there is 20 amps overload protection to reduce the power and a second 30 amps cut off at the battery BMS . What other pedelec could give more ? I was expecting overload cut-off but did not get any on this trip, that is all I am saying really.

d) The incident at the Ramada hotel is not bizarre in anyway, it reflected how bicycle or cyclist are being look down upon.

I pay the same price for the hotel room as the guy who drove his car in, what right does those security guard have over me

that I could not ride my bicycle to suitable parking space at the car park ?

I have to leave my bike there simply because there is no other possibility for me, there is more than enough room at the Ramada hotel

to keep 2 bicycles, and in the end it all went well, there is nothing unreasonable about it.

e) I prefer to use the EAF over such long rides to avoid the wrist fatigue, anything wrong with that ?

 

Thanks, and best regards

Ching

and another on the subject of spokes:

 

 

One more reply to the comment raise about the spokes.

 

I regret not taking photos of more than 100 kms of badly broken concrete roads that we have cycled passed, obviously some readers could not picture what they are like, but in anycase it is not important. Some of which we covered at more than 20 kmph speed at night. So, let me say that I am more than happy that the only damages to the 2 eZee Torqs were a tyre and 2 spokes.

 

Best regards

W W Ching

As I'd posted above, nothing wrong with any of that, if that last paragraph hadn't been added to an otherwise excellent article.

 

We aren't deficient, the Li-ion battery is, and there's nothing more to be said about that.

 

If Mr Ching has no preference, why can't we have good quality NiMh batteries ex stock? Other bike companies and battery suppliers manage it.

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As I'd posted above, nothing wrong with any of that, if that last paragraph hadn't been added to an otherwise excellent article.

 

We aren't deficient, the Li-ion battery is, and there's nothing more to be said about that.

 

If Mr Ching has no preference, why can't we have good quality NiMh batteries ex stock? Other bike companies and battery suppliers manage it.

.

 

Yes I am quite indignant about the comment that the customers decided to buy Li-ion. The Li-ions have been hyped - I bought one on the assumption that it would last a couple of years. Now the truth is out I want NiMH but his company won't supply them. I am going off Ezee.

As I'd posted above, nothing wrong with any of that, if that last paragraph hadn't been added to an otherwise excellent article.

 

We aren't deficient, the Li-ion battery is, and there's nothing more to be said about that.

 

If Mr Ching has no preference, why can't we have good quality NiMh batteries ex stock? Other bike companies and battery suppliers manage it.

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NiMH battery I could supply as much as you like. In the supply line, the NiMH mfr do not stock pile them, and in today's business environment every one is working on just in time inventory, so neither would the NiMH battery mfr. be able to supply me the next day or next month if I ordered it today. The delivery period from the mfr. is about 6-8 weeks from date of order to delivery, and then of course I need to time to put them into the casing and soldering the wires and connectors and do the QC work, and to finally even arranging the shipment from Shanghai to Felixstowe I need 10 days to go through all the bureaucracies in China, the sailing time from Shanghai to Felixstowe is about 30 days. As long as 50cycles process the order with the required lead time and procedure that I need, they will have the NiMH battery available, the fact is they don't and so they have no NiMH battery to supply.

I am sure that all you say about lead times for NiMH batteries is true, however there has been a demand for these batteries for months now, as discussed on this forum. A stock of NiMH batteries came in around the 4th October and were sold out (from memory) in about 4 days, so the message about demand is quite clear and presumably we should expect supplies to resume in the new year. If there are communication problems between us, the consumer and you, the manufacturer (via 50 cycles) then I would have thought it would be in your interest to sort them out.

 

I for one would not buy one of your ebikes (I already own a Torq) with a Li-ion battery because I have had such a bad experience (the battery lasted 100-130 cycles). I am sure there are others in a similar situation so you will lose sales. You could of course re-design the controller and/or battery bms to avoid the dreaded cut-outs on hills so at least the Li-ions would be more usable towards the end of their (short) lives. This I appreciate, is an expensive option just for the American/UK market.

 

All the best.

My experience has been the similar to HarryB's Mr Ching.

 

Three Li-ion batteries, all six months to unusable in your standard Torq and Quando bikes in a hilly area, and I am a capable cyclist. Despite my age, I can pedal an unpowered Torq up a fairly short 1 in 7 (14%) hill, so am perfectly capable of sharing the load with the battery.

 

It's the Li-ion battery that's not capable, not this cyclist.

 

I now use three NiMh, one of your own standard stock items, one modified by me and one converted from Li-ion to NiMh. Other members have also done conversions of Li-ion to NiMh after their poor experiences with the former.

 

None of us would go to all this trouble and the expense of buying a new charger if it was possible to continue with Li-ion.

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Edited December 12, 200718 yr by flecc

Lead Time

 

Mr. Ching tells us that there is a lead time from placing the order to delivery at Felixstowe of about 14 weeks. So, are 50 Cycles ordering them only as and when they have a firm order from a customer?

Have they got a cash crisis or something of that nature so that they are unable to finance an anticipated demand? Or is it their shoe-string budget.

It only takes one order based upon anticipated demand to break the deadlock.

I would suggest they look at their statistics to establish the demand: but I expect the figures have been spoiled by their 'preference' for Lithium on account of its higher price and, in all probability, higher profit.

Peter

I know that's not the case Peter, they are being ordered, just not available.

 

Why else would they be trying hard to find an alternative source meanwhile?

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I agree with Flecc - there would be no reason for me to buy a different type of battery and TWO chargers if the Li-ion was adequate. Or to make a fuss in this forum for that matter - I have no axe to grind. As it was I was forced to buy a Li-ion battery I know will only last 8 months (before cutting out), this puts the economics of electric bikes into a different light.

 

I am hoping for a response from 50 cycles as I know they understand that there is a demand for NiMH batteries. They even have an email list of those requiring batteries - if you need one and don't want to pre-pay (and why should you) then make sure you email 50 cycles.

What's surprising about this is that the rest of the Torq, indeed the rest of the eZee range, seems to be well designed and thought out. Clearly the manufacturer does have his brain in gear and is responding to feedback from users.

 

Except on this one point, which is why it stands out so much.

 

Ezee and 50 cycles have got to the top of the market. But they could lose it so easily. This could well end up as one of the case stories in management books about companies have got to the top and then blown it completely through some stupidity.

 

You think I'm joking. Consider this. On this forum in November all the talk was about the eZee range and how they were the ones to buy. In December its all about how the Kahlkoff is wonderful and how badly eZee is treating its customers. The turnround can be that quick and that severe and incredibly difficult to reverse.

 

Nick

 

Clearly the manufacturer does have his brain in gear and is responding to feedback from users.

 

Nick

 

The original posting in this thread, purporting to show that the Li-ions were ok shows very clearly that this is not the case Nick.

 

We've been struggling for a year to convince the manufacturer that the Li-ion is no good, and it was over my posting on this issue in this forum a very long time ago that the manufacturer refused to reply to my emails subsequently.

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I agree with all the posts regarding the poor performance of li-ion batteries. I've had one fail (not an eeze one) and another is so poor I don't bother using it anymore.

 

I bought an eZee Nimh battery and charger earlier this year and have been absolutely delighted with it. I'll never touch lithium again until I can read the rave reviews from users on this forum. I would rather do without the electric bike than buy lithium again (or even spend the money I would have wasted on lithium on a non-assisted bike).

 

I think eZee could easily place an order for Nimh batteries and keep a decent level of stock for an initial outlay of only a few thousand pounds. Surely it can't be lack of a couple of grand that's stopping all the disgruntled users getting their hands on Nimh? It's madness.

Hi flecc,

 

Are you quoting me out of context? My next line is "Except on this...."

I'm trying to show the contrast between the fact that they must have listened on other things to get where they are, and that on this subject they are turning round and insulting our intelligence.

 

Nick

This issue must be costing 50cycles sales. I was very tempted to buy one of their products because I knew that the bikes themselves have a good reputation. It was the question mark over the lithium batteries that persuaded me not to do so. If there had been a NiMh alternative readily available then they would have got another sale.

Two Sorts Of Truth Then

 

I know that's not the case Peter, they are being ordered, just not available.

 

Why else would they be trying hard to find an alternative source meanwhile?

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Why then are NiMH in such short supply (and now it seems Lithium too - see 50 cycles web site) if eZee (Mr Ching) can supply them if ordered (Quote: NiMH I can supply as much as you like").

There's a contradiction here somewhere.

Peter

Why then are NiMH in such short supply (and now it seems Lithium too - see 50 cycles web site) if eZee (Mr Ching) can supply them if ordered (Quote: NiMH I can supply as much as you like").

There's a contradiction here somewhere.

Peter

 

 

I would hate to accuse anybody of not telling the truth on this issue but I agree it does not add up. I just wish they would sort it out as it is in all party's interest. 50 cycles can you assure us that you have NiMH batteries on back order? Or is all your energy going into the Kahlkoff range?

I'm sure no-one is lying. This feels like another failure of the business model.

 

I'm sure that what Ezee is saying is true and would be surprised if 50 Cycles has actually said anything untrue, although they may have subtly misled people by implying NiMH batteries were impossible to get hold of. (Please note I have not checked back every statement, and do not intend to do so, and therefore will apologise profoundly if there has not been any such subtle misleading - all I am trying to do is to set out the business reasons why this situation is almost inevitable to come about)

 

Ezee outsources its UK distribution to 50 Cycles, which I assume to be a small but high growth business. I would expect such a business at this stage of its life to be cash constrained. Therefore it has to choose between alternative uses of its cash, and, to represent best interest of its shareholders, it must make the choice that it believes is likely to maximise profits in the long run (taking into account any customer dissatisfaction which may ensue). Faced with the following three choices, what would you do:

 

1. Invest in buying expensive spare parts (ie batteries) for a small minority of your most sophisticated customers. For these parts there is a particularly long lead time from you parting with the cash to receiving these parts, the price of them is volatile and your customers may resist your attempts to pass on price increases. Also these parts earn you lower profits than the ones that you have in stock (ie lithiums).

 

2. Invest in buying more finished product (eg Torqs, F-Series, etc) to sell to new customers who want a bike before the peak Christmas sales period.

 

3. Invest in buying stock to launch a new, high profile model which has received excellent reviews (ie Agutta) and which complements your existing range very well, enabling you to target a different customer segment who might not otherwise buy from you.

 

4. Combine 2 and 3 above with soothing words for the small number of your customers who want the awkward to obtain spares, and blame the global shortage of raw materials.

 

There are few people who would not be very tempted by option 4, and I would not blame them, from a business perspective.

 

This problem is solved in other markets by having alternative sources of funding so that 50 Cycles does not have to make such choices regarding use of its cash. For example, in other markets, the manufacturer will often retain ownership of the stock until it is sold. I do not believe Ezee or other bike manufacturers do this. If it did, 50 Cycles would not be cash constrained and could invest in batteries. Also in other markets, the distributor would not attempt to operate as a vertically integrated retailer, enabling other, better-funded retailers to invest their cash in buying up the spares, should they see it as an attractive way to compete.

 

Please also note that this is all inference on my part based on how businesses in general work but not based on any specific knowledge of Ezee or 50 Cycles. Therefore it may be wrong but it seems to fit the facts!

 

Frank

Hi flecc,

 

Are you quoting me out of context? My next line is "Except on this...."

I'm trying to show the contrast between the fact that they must have listened on other things to get where they are, and that on this subject they are turning round and insulting our intelligence.

 

Nick

 

Not intentionally Nick, that wasn't clear from what you said, and this thread is on the battery issue, hence my taking it that way. I'm anxious that there should be no hint of "letting off the hook" on this issue, it's gone on too long already and the alibis and excuses like Mr Chings opening post should have stopped long ago.

 

We aren't alone in this, the US market is just as fed up with these Li-ions and dealers there like Nycewheels are again supplying NiMh.

 

As you've rightly said, the eZee business will fail on this one issue if there's not a rapid return to NiMh on all models, of that there's no doubt. All but two were designed with NiMh and worked so well with those that the bikes jumped to the top in desirability. Since the introduction of Li-ion, all that status has been lost and huge damage done to the eZee company.

 

I repeat, it's not just an after market issue, the bikes should come with NiMh as standard until such time as a fully working and lasting Li-ion battery becomes available, if ever.

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