Newbie - Advice required on conversion legals please?

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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  • a blanked statement 'throttles are not permitted on new EAPC's is incorrect?
  • they are allowed providing that ALL the EAPC rules are met (i.e, the throttle control is permitted during pedal assist below 15.5 mph)?
  • a system that includes a throttle that's active only during pedalling is not classed as a 'twist & go'
Yes, and for the first reason I've often specified that it's a fully acting/freely acting throttle that's not allowed. In fact in my second reply to you on this link I posted "free acting" to make it clear.

Technically the second two of your statements is incomplete for compliance with the law. Remember the power is supposed to phase down as the road speed approaches the legal limit. The problem with your supposition is "phase down from what?", since prior to that you are varying the power. I'm sure you can see that problem, it's akin to when people use two comparatives like "more better". (Than what?)

However that is "legalese", in practice many manufacturers ignore the requirement for power phase down so you can ignore it too.

The Japanese who were early into pedelecs did draft very accurate law regarding phase down and the details are in this extract of an article I've published elsewhere. It's a nightmare we wouldn't want here!

The explanation for the very early phase down is more complex, and it results from Japanese law on electric assist pedal cycles. The Japanese have determined that the maximum power allowable must not exceed the power the rider puts in (1 to 1), and that this should only be fully available within normal cycling speeds. Unfortunately for us, the Japanese have a very different view on cycling speeds to that of UK riders, They regard their common cycling speed as being 15 kph (9.4 mph), and for "sports" riders like our lycra brigade, 24 kph (15 mph), which would raise a laugh from UK club riders who can often average 20 mph for an hour in moderately hilly areas. Since sports riders don't use electric assist bikes, only the "common" bike's speed is legislated for. Therefore in accordance with that, the Panasonic design has integral to it the phase down above full assist at 15 kph (9.4 mph) when the bike is in top gear.

But that's not the end of it, for Japanese law prescribes the power phase down slope as well. Since an analogue slope doesn't readily match digital electronic systems working, Panasonic have chosen to have four step downs giving a rough tail off of power corresponding with the legal requirement, which is expressed in Japanese law by this equation:

1 - ( [kph - 15] / 9 ) = assist factor

where kph is the road speed.

Quite simply what this means is the road speed in kph, minus 15 (the 1 to 1 power assist limit), then divided by 9 produces a result which is subtracted from 1.

In a practical example, at 20 kph (12.5 mph), taking 15 from that 20 kph gives us 5. Then that 5 divided by 9 gives 0.55 recurring. To complete the equation we take that 0.55 from 1 to give 0.45 or 45%, and that's the ratio of rider power that the motor is allowed to assist with at 12.5 mph.

At the lower speed of 11 mph (17.6 kph) using the same calculation, 17.6 minus 15 then divided by 9 and taken away from 1 gives 0.71 or 71% of the riders input given as motor assistance. At the higher speed of 13 mph (20.8 kph), only 36% of rider input is given by the motor.

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Brummie

Pedelecer
Mar 18, 2018
55
9
58
Midlands
flecc - thanks for your confirmation.
FYI, I did explain from the outset & reiterated throughout that I was talking about using a throttle in conjunction with meeting all the EAPC rules. Of course, as you say, the rules are more detailed than the high level ones I mentioned. I've never ever suggested using a throttle that can freely override the rules of an EAPC. I just wanted confirmation that the rules don't prohibit throttle in their entirety, and do permit a throttle when used conjunction with a control system that ensures all the other EAPC rules are met.
Good discussion and we got there in the end...
 
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anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,845
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The European Union
flecc - thanks for your confirmation.
FYI, I did explain from the outset & reiterated throughout that I was talking about using a throttle in conjunction with meeting all the EAPC rules. Of course, as you say, the rules are more detailed than the high level ones I mentioned. I've never ever suggested using a throttle that can freely override the rules of an EAPC. I just wanted confirmation that the rules don't prohibit throttle in their entirety, and do permit a throttle when used conjunction with a control system that ensures all the other EAPC rules are met.
Good discussion and we got there in the end...
In the UK... don't try riding it on the continent.
 
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Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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I just wanted confirmation that the rules don't prohibit throttle in their entirety, and do permit a throttle when used conjunction with a control system that ensures all the other EAPC rules are met.
Here is the reply from the DfT that was posted in the forum 3 years ago.

http://pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/type-approval.20368/#post-255421

"Although ‘Twist and Go’ cycles will require Type Approval according to the dates in EU 168/2013 the decision has been taken that cycles that have ‘Twist and Go’ capabilities up to 15.5 mph will not be considered as motor vehicles and therefore will not require registration, tax, insurance and rider licensing."
 
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Deleted member 4366

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To put you in the picture, until 5 years ago, I used to cycle it once or twice per week and got it down to 1hr 50mins each way. 6 years on, aged 51, 2st heavier (14st) and recovered from an injury, I've been putting off attempting it again, hence i'm more likely to get some exercise on an EAPC than not riding at all. Depending on route/direction, its up 500ft and down 500ft.
There are some motors that have different labels for different applications, though the different versions are identical from the outside. They have easy to peal off labels on them. Would that appeal to you or do you need 100% legal traceability? Is your plan to restrict to 25 km/h?
 
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Brummie

Pedelecer
Mar 18, 2018
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58
Midlands
Here is the reply from the DfT that was posted in the forum 3 years ago.

http://pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/type-approval.20368/#post-255421

"Although ‘Twist and Go’ cycles will require Type Approval according to the dates in EU 168/2013 the decision has been taken that cycles that have ‘Twist and Go’ capabilities up to 15.5 mph will not be considered as motor vehicles and therefore will not require registration, tax, insurance and rider licensing."
Thanks Woosh... and my control query/proposal of using a throttle on an EAPC isn't even 'twist & go' because you still have to pedal!
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Here is the reply from the DfT that was posted in the forum 3 years ago.

http://pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/type-approval.20368/#post-255421

"Although ‘Twist and Go’ cycles will require Type Approval according to the dates in EU 168/2013 the decision has been taken that cycles that have ‘Twist and Go’ capabilities up to 15.5 mph will not be considered as motor vehicles and therefore will not require registration, tax, insurance and rider licensing."
That was stated to be subject to them being type approved in an new class of type approval so they would conform with EU regulations. We are still awaiting that, and with Brexit it may never happen.
.
 

Brummie

Pedelecer
Mar 18, 2018
55
9
58
Midlands
There are some motors that have different labels for different applications, though the different versions are identical from the outside. They have easy to peal off labels on them. Would that appeal to you or do you need 100% legal traceability? Is your plan to restrict to 25 km/h?
That would appeal to me but at the moment I haven't got a gauge for whether people consider it's such low risk of getting caught that you can fairly safely ignore the 250 limit (as long as your sensible) or whether it's only time before you get caught?
It appears that even if you buy the swytch 250 LCD kit, you can still get 400W and set any speed limit you like and it would 'look' legal. I appreciate that the speed will still be limited via motor performance and would plateau out not much higher than the legal limit though.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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That would appeal to me but at the moment I haven't got a gauge for whether people consider it's such low risk of getting caught that you can fairly safely ignore the 250 limit (as long as your sensible) or whether it's only time before you get caught?
It appears that even if you buy the swytch 250 LCD kit, you can still get 400W and set any speed limit you like and it would 'look' legal. I appreciate that the speed will still be limited via motor performance and would plateau out not much higher than the legal limit though.

Looking legal is what matters. One of the most respected names in e-bike kits, Heinzmann, for years supplied the identical kit as 200 watts, 400 watts and 700 watts in three different markets of the world to suit their laws. Among the users were government departments, for example the German Post Office. Given how famously the Germans comply with the law, that's somewhat amusing.
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Brummie

Pedelecer
Mar 18, 2018
55
9
58
Midlands
Opinions very much invited & appreciated...
To perform my 30 mile x 2 commute, is the 250W/50miles swytch kit suitable or will it frustrate me to the point I'd wish I'd have gone for the 350/500W kit?
I know the experts may cherry pick / mix & match components but just look at what you get for the money.
The full 250/50 kit costs £283
The full 500/50 kit costs £336
Throttle £14
New chargers are £15, additional 10A battery packs £105 (which they will recycle/swap for £75), extra kits are just £105 (everything except controller/power pack).
What can I 'cherry pick' that's better for the price?
 

Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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That was stated to be subject to them being type approved in an new class of type approval so they would conform with EU regulations. We are still awaiting that, and with Brexit it may never happen.
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we have already 5 millions sufferers of type 2 diabetes and about 2 millions with hips and knees problems, there will be more and more people needing a throttle as a backup.
 
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Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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What can I 'cherry pick' that's better for the price?
How many bikes have you tried?
You need to find one ready made that suits you then come back here and tell us.
There are hundreds of kits on the market, we need to narrow down your choices.
 

Brummie

Pedelecer
Mar 18, 2018
55
9
58
Midlands
How many bikes have you tried?
You need to find one ready made that suits you then come back here and tell us.
There are hundreds of kits on the market, we need to narrow down your choices.
Ummm... Good question. I've tried absolutely no ebikes whatsoever! Where do you suggest I start (live in south brum and work in Coventry)?
 

tommie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Mar 13, 2013
1,760
600
Co. Down, N. Ireland, U.K.
i wouldn`t really get hung up on this throttle thing, you can 99% of the time do without it, i rarely use it with my conversion (Bafang BBS).
If you get really exhausted just gently moving the pedals forward gives you power, no exertion needed.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,203
30,604
Ummm... Good question. I've tried absolutely no ebikes whatsoever! Where do you suggest I start (live in south brum and work in Coventry)?
I'm not familiar with your area's facilities but this dealer used to do some e-bikes:

John Atkins Cycles Coventry Ltd

140 Far Gosford Street
Coventry, CV1 5DY

024 7622 2997

In the other direction at Kidderminster there's Onbike who specialise in electric bikes only and have very knowledgeable people running the show:

OnBike - Kidderminster

The e-bike specialists, click on above link for their website

Unit 330,
The Enterprise Centre, Hartlebury Trading Estate, Hartlebury
Kidderminster, DY10 4JB

Tel: 01299 25 15 14

They offer free test rides on a large range of e-bikes.
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Deleted member 4366

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You can try bikes at Halfords or any electric bike shop. Don't be too quick to buy a Halfords bike without taking further advice first. As a commuter bike, I have to give two of their bikes the thumbs down because the stupid torque sensor isn't up to commuting. I can't understand why they would want to put such an expensive and unreliable arrangement on what's otherwise a good bike. Even if it worked, it wouldn't give any advantage over a magnetic cadence sensor. Its just stupid marketing.
 

Brummie

Pedelecer
Mar 18, 2018
55
9
58
Midlands
i wouldn`t really get hung up on this throttle thing, you can 99% of the time do without it, i rarely use it with my conversion (Bafang BBS).
If you get really exhausted just gently moving the pedals forward gives you power, no exertion needed.
Thanks. I'll fit one anyway and It appears that there's been a turn round of opinion on what i was actually saying about the throttle law.
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,379
16,876
Southend on Sea
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Brummie, when you go visit a bike shop, don't mention the word 'throttle' - it may cause a rash on the shop owner's face!
Most e-bikes don't have a throttle and most of the time, you won't need one.
I replied to you because you wanted to know.
Most vendors hate it, most customers don't care for it.
 

craiggor

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 9, 2015
498
171
I think most vendors hate it along with the manufacturers because its the only way to do a fair range comparison between different makes and models. Pity they didn't put up a flight to save it must be a lot of customers that have it fit their own due to fitness or disability.

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