D
Deleted member 4366
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There is no list. If you tell us all the performance characteristics you need, we can tell you how to achieve them.
Newbie - Advice required on conversion legals please?
- Thread starter Brummie
- Start date
You would do this via the controller taking inputs of throttle, speed & pedal. The controller would apply the basic rule (enable throttle control if speed < 25kph AND cadence > calibrated threshold). This would prohibit the ability of 'twist n go' (motor assist with pedalling above 4mph). The control algorithm can be a complicated as manufacturer wishes to ensure compliance & refinement.
So are you now agreeing that if you take the law literally, then I am right, but you think the rules don't properly describe what you think is the spirit in which they were intended?
In terms of the courts, I would like to think that laws are applied literally without sentiment, opinion or interpretation. I find it unreasonable that a court would find someone guilty for 100% compliance with the law on the basis that someone broke a rule that the writer meant to say when he wrote them!
So are you now agreeing that if you take the law literally, then I am right, but you think the rules don't properly describe what you think is the spirit in which they were intended?
In terms of the courts, I would like to think that laws are applied literally without sentiment, opinion or interpretation. I find it unreasonable that a court would find someone guilty for 100% compliance with the law on the basis that someone broke a rule that the writer meant to say when he wrote them!
D
Deleted member 4366
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That's too complicated. The only rule is that the power must stop when you stop pedalling. You can regulate the speed/power with a throttle as long as the pedals are turning.
I made a bike where the motor turned the pedals so that the bike pedalled you rather than the other way round. I'm not sure how the regulations would consider that, but there would be no power when you stop pedalling. I guess they never thought of that arrangement. The motor was controlled by only a throttle. A guy with false legs could ride this bike
Here it is:
No and no. The law is quite clear and it's in the EAPC title, Electric Assist Pedal Cycle. That clearly means a cycle with its pedalling assisted. That is repeated in the Type Approval exemption I quoted to you. Having a throttle to enable drive without pedalling would clearly make it a form of motorcycle then, not a bicycle, in turn requiring type approval and registration as such, and clearly not in compliance with EAPC law.
The interpretation of the spirit of any law only arises if there is confusion in the meaning. It's impossible to draft every law perfectly for every possible situation and that is when the spirit of what parliament intended is interpreted by a senior court.
There is no confusion here since the spirit of what parliament intended is very clear, but if you think there is you can take the issue to the courts to be tested.
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btw Brummie, what conversion were you considering?
Maybe knowing that may help in your predicament?
Maybe knowing that may help in your predicament?
I think we may be at cross purposes. Throughout this thread I have reiterated that I'm talking about a throttle used on a bike that continues to comply with all the EAPC rules it complied with before the throttle was fitted. The control logic that I described only activates the throttle input whilst pedalling.
That's a good question that I'm not experienced experienced if enough to answer. I don't want to learn by costly mistakes, so I will listen to any advise given (but as you've noticed - I like to understand too)!
My aim is to travel a return journey as fast as I can (safely) across 2 x 30 miles of B roads on a commute to work. I have an old but light weight Marin northside trail front sus MTB on 26" slicks & I have a 2008 specialized sirus elite with carbon forks/stays (that I realise i'd have to be careful with)!
I'd like to get a good combination of acceleration & top speed without killing myself or getting locked up!
I was thinking of the 50 mile swytch kit. I think the 250 version has the new motor that you've been talking about on another thread. The standard controller has a 11/12A limit and the upgrade (supplied normally with the 500W kit) has a 20A limit (which can be reduced if the 250 hub is used).
You may have noticed that I've just answered this on the previous post.
My other question about why isn't a throttle allowed on an EAPC if it's only operable within the constraints of the EAPC rules is independent to my conversion requirements.
your project is real tough test for any would be suppliers.
Firstly, a kit adds about 6+ kgs of unsprung weight to the bike which will weaken the frame over time. With the kind of mileage you envisage, start with a tough bike like a Surly or a Nukeproof. Then add a tough motor like a BPM. Then add a substantial battery to last at least 30% more than the distance you want to travel before charging. That's 17AH. These things add up in weight and money.
You'd be better off buying a small motorbike.
Firstly, a kit adds about 6+ kgs of unsprung weight to the bike which will weaken the frame over time. With the kind of mileage you envisage, start with a tough bike like a Surly or a Nukeproof. Then add a tough motor like a BPM. Then add a substantial battery to last at least 30% more than the distance you want to travel before charging. That's 17AH. These things add up in weight and money.
You'd be better off buying a small motorbike.
That's what I've been saying all along (as long as your below 25kph) but Woosh & Flecc disagree.
It just shows that even experienced people can't agree on the rules! (no criticism/offence intended), I'm trying to learn between all the conflicting confusion.
Thanks - I should add that it will be recharged after each 30 miles (not 60 miles on one charge). I don't know if I should optimise and accept the limitations of 250 kit or risk being naughty with a 350/500?
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D
Deleted member 4366
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What about your weight and hills? They'e very important factors.
The difference in cost between a 13AH (minimum for your commute) and 17AH (sensible choice) is about £100.
you don't save money by buying a smaller capacity (13AH) for your commute.
Firstly, the voltage of a smaller capacity sags more. More of it as a percentage will be converted into heat.
Secondly, you need to buy a second charger to keep work. That adds to the cost.
Thirdly, you need time to charge. If you ever forget to recharge, it'll be a long wait or a tough journey home.
Fourthly, batteries have about 800 charging cycles before losing too much capacity.
Thanks Brummie, understood, there's no problem with that in practice. I've often pointed out that although European made pedelecs supposedly have no throttle, most do in another way. What I mean is that they have switched power levels with as many as 9 steps, so that is effectively a throttle.
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To put you in the picture, until 5 years ago, I used to cycle it once or twice per week and got it down to 1hr 50mins each way. 6 years on, aged 51, 2st heavier (14st) and recovered from an injury, I've been putting off attempting it again, hence i'm more likely to get some exercise on an EAPC than not riding at all. Depending on route/direction, its up 500ft and down 500ft.
at 14st, 350W is a good compromise.
Don't pay any attention to the marketing hype.
A 500W or even 1000W motor does not necessarily give more torque than a 250W legal motor.
You have to take into account the motor type, gear reduction ratio, controller maximum current and voltage.
It's best to ask your questions here.
Thank you! My aim was never to prove anyone wrong. I just wanted to see the evidence to substantiate why peoples opinions differed to the rules that I'd been reading. So, to avoid any confusion and to be absolutely certain... are you now agreeing;
- a blanked statement 'throttles are not permitted on new EAPC's is incorrect?
- they are allowed providing that ALL the EAPC rules are met (i.e, the throttle control is permitted during pedal assist below 15.5 mph)?
- a system that includes a throttle that's active only during pedalling is not classed as a 'twist & go'
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Hi Brummie,
It’s a mine field!
It is my understanding that the following is true.
If you buy a new electric bicycle or EPAC (EAPC in the UK) the assistance power has to cut off gradually before the bike reaches 25km/h or 15.5 mph.
A throttle can be fitted as long as it does not work at speeds of more than 6km/h or 4mph. This is described as walk along mode. To the letter of the law the rider should not be sitting on the bike when operating the walk along mode.
When the pedals are turning forward the throttle becomes an assistance regulator doing the same job as turning up assistance from the display. As you say, this is not considered a twist and go.
There is a currently unfilled loophole that I know is in the process of being closed. The loophole is being taken advantage of by some ebike and ebike kit suppliers. This allows the retro fitting of a throttle or a kit with a throttle by the end user, These cannot be shop or manufacturer fitted. I am not sure of the legalities in using a full throttle on the public highway. The bike certainly is not an EAPC, so to the letter of the law probably should not be used anywhere that the public have access unless it is type approved etc.
In light of the recent prosecution in the Chanel Islands where the rider of an illegal ebike was prosecuted, fined and lost his driving licence, my advice would be to buy a properly designed and built Ebike. That way you know it conforms to the law not only for sale in the UK but for use.
All the best, David
It’s a mine field!
It is my understanding that the following is true.
If you buy a new electric bicycle or EPAC (EAPC in the UK) the assistance power has to cut off gradually before the bike reaches 25km/h or 15.5 mph.
A throttle can be fitted as long as it does not work at speeds of more than 6km/h or 4mph. This is described as walk along mode. To the letter of the law the rider should not be sitting on the bike when operating the walk along mode.
When the pedals are turning forward the throttle becomes an assistance regulator doing the same job as turning up assistance from the display. As you say, this is not considered a twist and go.
There is a currently unfilled loophole that I know is in the process of being closed. The loophole is being taken advantage of by some ebike and ebike kit suppliers. This allows the retro fitting of a throttle or a kit with a throttle by the end user, These cannot be shop or manufacturer fitted. I am not sure of the legalities in using a full throttle on the public highway. The bike certainly is not an EAPC, so to the letter of the law probably should not be used anywhere that the public have access unless it is type approved etc.
In light of the recent prosecution in the Chanel Islands where the rider of an illegal ebike was prosecuted, fined and lost his driving licence, my advice would be to buy a properly designed and built Ebike. That way you know it conforms to the law not only for sale in the UK but for use.
All the best, David
Just to add a little spice...
The EU publishes regulations, sovereign national governments pass them into law (or not - as in NI).
Throttles are a very UK thing, you won't find many on bikes in the EU even though they are easy enough to buy online from EU electric bike stores.
The EU publishes regulations, sovereign national governments pass them into law (or not - as in NI).
Throttles are a very UK thing, you won't find many on bikes in the EU even though they are easy enough to buy online from EU electric bike stores.
in practice, the throttle is included in all kits that use a rotational pedal sensor, all kits and bikes that work with a torque sensor don't have a throttle.
Even when the throttle is supplied, it is seldom use but it's a godsend when you need to:
1. pull away from stop in a wrong gear
2. completely exhausted
3. climb steep gradient with a wrong assist level
4. have dodgy knees/ankles/hips
In all those situations, the 4mph limited throttle can't do much to help.
Hence the attitude of the police not to be bothered with the throttle because it is used for good reasons.
In the case of the guy prosecuted in Guernsey,
"David Hutchinson’s electrically-assisted mountain bike could travel up to 33mph, police found when they tested it."
So think twice before you go for anything labelled as 1000W.
Read more at https://guernseypress.com/news/2017/12/18/electric-bike-rider-is-taken-off-roads
Even when the throttle is supplied, it is seldom use but it's a godsend when you need to:
1. pull away from stop in a wrong gear
2. completely exhausted
3. climb steep gradient with a wrong assist level
4. have dodgy knees/ankles/hips
In all those situations, the 4mph limited throttle can't do much to help.
Hence the attitude of the police not to be bothered with the throttle because it is used for good reasons.
In the case of the guy prosecuted in Guernsey,
"David Hutchinson’s electrically-assisted mountain bike could travel up to 33mph, police found when they tested it."
So think twice before you go for anything labelled as 1000W.
Read more at https://guernseypress.com/news/2017/12/18/electric-bike-rider-is-taken-off-roads
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