New Test For Immigrants.

[the_killjoy]

Whilst I would like to have a significant limit on immigration I don't believe that most of those coming in are a drain on the economy. Traditionally 1st generation immigrants have always been the hardest section of the community, you only have to see that 80% (or similar ?) of new jobs have gone to immigrants as most of them come in with a strong work/family ethic.

I see the problem is that the infrastructure can not easily support an increased population ~ just look at the housing crisis.

 

[flecc]

In Sweden the taxes are far higher than anywhere else in Europe to pay for their excellent universal welfare (better than ours in the UK), and they do have a very large proportion of immigrants.

The Swedes are reported to be the happiest citizens with their governance in Europe, showing that immigration, high quality universal welfare and contentment is possible.

There is one crucial difference from the UK, Swedish executive pay is very much lower than most places in the world and proportional to that of their workers, so with the fairness obvious, envy has no place there.

The UK's governments must stop propagating the lie that obscene executive pay levels are necessary to be competitive, and also put an end to the equally obscene imbalance of wealth and land ownership in Britain. We've got the space and the money, but most of us don't have the access to either.
.

 

[carpetbagger]

How can you provide statistics when thousands of illegal immigrants have entered this country and are no longer tracked so they can be removed,one of which killed an 8 year old girl 3 miles from where i live and they cannot be deported because they have supposed family in this country.
Tell that to her mother and father !

 

[carpetbagger]

Sorry,incorrect fact, the girl was 12.

Dad of Blackburn girl killed by illegal immigrant backs criticism of UK Border Agency (From Lancashire Telegraph)

 

[Deleted member 4366]

In Sweden the taxes are far higher than anywhere else in Europe to pay for their excellent universal welfare (better than ours in the UK), and they do have a very large proportion of immigrants.

The Swedes are reported to be the happiest citizens with their governance in Europe, showing that immigration, high quality universal welfare and contentment is possible.

There is one crucial difference from the UK, Swedish executive pay is very much lower than most places in the world and proportional to that of their workers, so with the fairness obvious, envy has no place there.

The UK's governments must stop propagating the lie that obscene executive pay levels are necessary to be competitive, and also put an end to the equally obscene imbalance of wealth and land ownership in Britain. We've got the space and the money, but most of us don't have the access to either.
.

The problem in Sweden is that there's so few people and so much free space that the Swedes get fed up not having anybody to talk to. No wonder they welcome a few immigrants. Not quite the same here. And do they have 25% youth unemployment?

To me, it makes a bit more sense to invite immigrants when you have job vacancies and nobody to fill them, not just open the floodgates and hope that the situation will sort itself out.

 

[flecc]

The problem in Sweden is that there's so few people and so much free space that the Swedes get fed up not having anybody to talk to. No wonder they welcome a few immigrants. Not quite the same here. And do they have 25% youth unemployment?

The point is though that they are a happy nation with far greater equality, the two not unconnected. And as said, that is combined with a high level of immigration and a universal welfare system that is far, far better than ours.

Our problems are not caused by immigrants, they are just the scapegoats for the ill effects of our bad political policies and lack of performance. The sub-prime scandal and bankers practices are what put us where we and the rest of the western world are.

 

[Scimitar]

From Swedish friends I get their opinion that the Swedish government has created a rod for the country's own back.

 

[flecc]

From Swedish friends I get their opinion that the Swedish government has created a rod for the country's own back.

The inevitable outcome of any universal welfare system. We did the same in 1945 but with some early backing off and many later restrictions reducing our commitment to less than theirs.

But I repeat again, only the Swedes have expressed such high levels of satisfaction with their governance, something we certainly don't enjoy as this thread shows only too clearly.

 

[tillson]

I'm sure both of you can provide actual statistics for your claims of abuse, rather than daily mail articles. One would hate to think you were so angry over imagined slights.

It stands to reason that with a higher population services such as police, education, health, welfare, water & sewage and housing are all placed under more strain. If the island was desolate, you would need none of the above. As the numbers increase, you need more and more of the above. As you need more and more, the cost of provision increases. This is an irrefutable fact.

Immigration swells the population. The population of this country has increased due to legal and ilegal imigration. This has to have increased the cost of providing the services that I mention above. In other words, it now costs more to run the country due to the rising population. The problem is, a lot of immigrants aren't contributing to that rising cost either because they are here illegally or they are out of work and claiming benefits. There are so many, the government doesn't even know how many, or even the true population of the country for that matter. How stupid and incompetent is that?

Someone has to pay for this and guess who it is? The stupid and the unwitting. The stupid person who stands by and allows the government to steel his or her pension. The stupid person who sees their hard earnt saving ravaged by inflation. The stupid people who think that having to work longer before being allowed to have the pension they are entitled too, is because we are all living longer. The problem is, the open door imigration experiment has failed in a most catastrophic way. The population has risen in an unnatural and unexpected manner and they can no longer pay for it. There's nothing coming in, but loads going out, you see it on all the news channels. Quite simply, I don't want to pay for it. If people support imigration so passionately, volunteer to double your tax and give half your savings to the government to pay for it. Thought not! Well don't pledge my money then.

The people that have arrived legally are here now, it would be unfair and unjust to require them to leave. But for goodness sake, we can't carry on receiving people at this rate. The politicians who have allowed this to happen over the years need to be brought to account. In my view they are guilty of an appalling betrayal against the country.

Just out of interest to all the imigration supporters. What's the limit? At what point do we say enough?

 

[GaRRy]

Also the Nurses who are underpaid and overworked and are contsantly crucified if anything goes wrong..

Ex wife is a nurse and currently I wish I was earning what she does (28k+) and also had the same fringe benefits (6 weeks holiday + 12 bank holidays), Pension etc.

 

[carpetbagger]

It stands to reason that with a higher population services such as police, education, health, welfare, water & sewage and housing are all placed under more strain. If the island was desolate, you would need none of the above. As the numbers increase, you need more and more of the above. As you need more and more, the cost of provision increases. This is an irrefutable fact.

Immigration swells the population. The population of this country has increased due to legal and ilegal imigration. This has to have increased the cost of providing the services that I mention above. In other words, it now costs more to run the country due to the rising population. The problem is, a lot of immigrants aren't contributing to that rising cost either because they are here illegally or they are out of work and claiming benefits. There are so many, the government doesn't even know how many, or even the true population of the country for that matter. How stupid and incompetent is that?

Someone has to pay for this and guess who it is? The stupid and the unwitting. The stupid person who stands by and allows the government to steel his or her pension. The stupid person who sees their hard earnt saving ravaged by inflation. The stupid people who think that having to work longer before being allowed to have the pension they are entitled too, is because we are all living longer. The problem is, the open door imigration experiment has failed in a most catastrophic way. The population has risen in an unnatural and unexpected manner and they can no longer pay for it. There's nothing coming in, but loads going out, you see it on all the news channels. Quite simply, I don't want to pay for it. If people support imigration so passionately, volunteer to double your tax and give half your savings to the government to pay for it. Thought not! Well don't pledge my money then.

The people that have arrived legally are here now, it would be unfair and unjust to require them to leave. But for goodness sake, we can't carry on receiving people at this rate. The politicians who have allowed this to happen over the years need to be brought to account. In my view they are guilty of an appalling betrayal against the country.

Just out of interest to all the imigration supporters. What's the limit? At what point do we say enough?

probably when all our woodlands and fields are roads,railways,housing estates and industrial estates.

 

[mr_chompers]

It stands to reason that with a higher population services such as police, education, health, welfare, water & sewage and housing are all placed under more strain. If the island was desolate, you would need none of the above. As the numbers increase, you need more and more of the above. As you need more and more, the cost of provision increases. This is an irrefutable fact.

Your first paragraph is not irrefutable. More population allows for more workers, more businesses, more customers, more income for government services. This is why a small country like Iceland (320,000), and a large country like Germany (80ish million), can still offer reasonably similar levels of education, healthcare, and policing. The problem comes when you inject your personal prejudices assuming that the people here (ugg ugg, good!) are univerally contributing, and the people coming (ugg ugg bad!) are universally mooches. The facts do not bare this out.

This is even leaving out any racial prejudices that align with the majority of those already there (white) vs the race of those newly arriving (largely non-white) which cannot be removed from the discussion, as racism is shown to be intrinsically linked in our modern brains, to the point whites shown an image of a non-white faster than the conscious mind can recognize, still produce fear hormones in the brain. Anyone saying their opinions are devoid of racism is lacking introspection.

I´m also glossing over your point about pensions being linked to living longer (they are not nearly as closely related as the cutting of government services and the increase of profit seeking corporations in the mix)

Again, the government does not give out benefits without keeping statistics. You and others are painting it like anyone can waltz into a benefits location, ask for a check, and start living large off taxpayer efforts. This is laughably naive and there is nothing other than right wing op-eds not worth the paper they are written on that support this narrative. Any and all studies ever done in any nation on earth show that welfare queens are statistically irrelevant. The problems lie in the destruction of economic mobility (of which the UK is dead last in the OECD, the US is only slightly better, as 2nd to last) education, and wealth stratification. If you want solutions to dwindling social systems, look no further than your crooked elected leaders, not your newly arrived, possibly brown neighbor.

 

[neptune]

You know, for some reason I have a habit of starting threads that lead to controversy. At least it gives us something to discuss and think about. It is good to know that some share my opinions. Actually, I have just had a thought. To all those people who advocate unlimited immigration, why on earth do we need the armed forces then? Why do we need to defend our borders if everyone is allowed to come in whenever they wish? We could also save money on "Immigration Control". Why would we need that if we do not intend to control immigration?
What happens when, throughout the country, immigrants outnumber the natives? Even if the country remains a democracy, the country will be run in ways in which we have little say. We shall in effect live in an occupied country. We are sleepwalking into a disaster of unimaginable proportions.

 

[SRS]

Do you feel aggrieved that you could not live in Australia or America if you wished , or do you just accept that is the way they run their countries.

I accept that is the way they run country.

 

[geezee74]

Enoch Powell

I suggest that we all leave as quickly as we can as the rivers of blood are sure to flow. I would advise those of you that are 'that way inclined' to gather all of your copies if the daily mail and flee into the woods. Oh, sorry I forgot they are apparently soon to be infested with child murdering immigrants.

 

[JuicyBike]

Come back Eddieo. We need some sanity here...

 

[flecc]

Just out of interest to all the imigration supporters. What's the limit? At what point do we say enough?

I will answer your question. The answer is that there is no point at which immigration should be limited since this is a self regulating matter for the following reason.

As a point is reached where this country's conditions near those of the departure country of immigrants, they lose any desire to emigrate to here. This is already happening on a large scale, for example as the Polish economy has improved many Poles here have realised they are better off back there and they've been returning in large numbers to take up the new manufacturing jobs there. On a smaller scale there are returnees to other countries as we've run out of opportunities for them.

The inevitable outcome of this process of free movement will be an equalisation of living standards and economies throughout the world. To say that is wrong is to say that we are entitled to higher living standards than other human beings by virtue of our place of birth or who we are. If we maintain that, we might as well accept as truth the past statements of racial superiority that have made and are still making a mess of our world, e.g. Aryan superiority, God's chosen people.

It should be one world of equals, nothing else is acceptable and to make that true has a cost that we should be prepared to accept.

 

[jazper53]

I will answer your question. The answer is that there is no point at which immigration should be limited since this is a self regulating matter for the following reason.

As a point is reached where this country's conditions near those of the departure country of immigrants, they lose any desire to emigrate to here. This is already happening on a large scale, for example as the Polish economy has improved many Poles here have realised they are better off back there and they've been returning in large numbers to take up the new manufacturing jobs there. On a smaller scale there are returnees to other countries as we've run out of opportunities for them.

The inevitable outcome of this process of free movement will be an equalisation of living standards and economies throughout the world. To say that is wrong is to say that we are entitled to higher living standards than other human beings by virtue of our place of birth or who we are. If we maintain that, we might as well accept as truth the past statements of racial superiority that have made and are still making a mess of our world, e.g. Aryan superiority, God's chosen people.

It should be one world of equals, nothing else is acceptable and to make that true has a cost that we should be prepared to accept.

Such flawed immigration policies, does not bring prosperity to the average worker, but reduces the standard of living for vast sections of British society. Importing a third world wage economy, with all the taxation of a first world over-regulated state, cynically supported, if not inspired by business leaders, who have backdoor influence with present and past goverments inaction. The likely outcome of the present policies, which is all talk and little real action, will be a increase in support for extremist political forces, which will cause serious division, and destabilization for the nation.

 

[flecc]

Such flawed immigration policies, does not bring prosperity to the average worker, but reduces the standard of living for vast sections of British society.

As I've posted, an equalised world will bring lowered standards for the richer nations, so the outcome I agree.

Importing a third world wage economy, with all the taxation of a first world over-regulated state, cynically supported, if not inspired by business leaders, who have backdoor influences with present and past goverments. The likely outcome of the present policies, which is all talk and little real action, will be a increase in support for extremist political forces, which will cause serious division, and destabilization for the nation.

These things are irrelevant to the number of immigrants, they are due to poor policies and/or corrupt practice, often wrong but not the fault of immigrants who merely aspire to some of the quality of life that we have.

 

[JuicyBike]

... The likely outcome of the present policies, which is all talk and little real action, will be a increase in support for extremist political forces, which will cause serious division, and destabilization for the nation.

And from time to time it is important to remember that what is said on these forums is very much a part of that same wider forum of debate and views expressed here can also help cause division and destabilization. I think we should be careful not to inflame that debate, on such a widely read medium.

Posters should be aware of their responsibilities in all their published statements, be they traditional press, twitter, facebook or any published media, not to inflame and be accurate and responsible. Most of what has been said has been respectful of that, but a gentle nudge when strong feelings are stirred could be timely at this point.

I do agree that current political will to lead us through the current global economic and social rebalancing is weak and ineffective and needs to step up several gears to become proportionate to the threat from the extremist right wing using immigration for political ambition.

Born in Hounslow with a daughter making her home in the east end end I am well aware of the stresses in densely populated areas with a wide racial mix, and pleased to witness how amicable and supportive such communities can be.