New Conversion kit launching

[Woosh]

So the Lightest is better protected because not only the whole motor and gearbox is encased, but there's only one entry point for dirt and water through the output shaft, which is protected by sealed bearings and oil seals. On the top of that the lightest has only one potential point of entry instead of the two you have on bottom brackets ( one for each side)

that's better.
What reduction ratio is your internal gearbox?
Can you post pictures of the internal gearbox for comparison?

 

[Deleted member 25121]

that's better.
What reduction ratio is your internal gearbox?
Can you post pictures of the internal gearbox for comparison?

If I might say so, you currently have a great reputation on this forum but you're doing yourself no favours whatsoever by you and your mate Kirstin goading Matteo is this way.

Having said that, you're helping Matteo no end by giving him to opportunity to describe the engineering work that's gone into the Bikee Bike innovative new system.

Matteo - your English is excellent and you're doing a great job at responding in a polite, calm and informative manner. Well done.

 

[Woosh]

If I might say so, you currently have a great reputation on this forum but you're doing yourself no favours whatsoever by you and your mate Kirstin goading Matteo is this way.

maybe but it wasn't my intention.
I wasn't interested by Matteo's design from the point of view of ease of installation.
If the chain has to be lengthened to cope with the new path, it's a non starter.
I only came to the the thread because it seems to me that the initial answer that Matteo gave to KirstinS' comment was a put down and not fair to Chinese kits.

You can read Matteo's initial comment again if you like:

About seeing support or knowledge in forums: please realize that the support forums where created to fill the gap of a non-existing customer care from chinese companies: if you had a chance, would you ask support to the manufacturer or to someone you don't know which have the system? If the company tells you something it's responsible for what might come up and ready to deal with the consequences with the warranty procedure. If you blow everything because someone told you, then you have to bear all the consequences. So having support forums to me is symptom of bad customer care: those were born when a lot of people struggled to understand the few info in Chinese and decided to put together their effort to understand how to make the systems work.... and I've been there as well.

Matteo might see things that way, but is it not that the reseller is the first point of contact for support?

 

[Deleted member 25121]

I only came to the the thread because it seems to me that the initial answer that Matteo gave to KirstinS' comment was a put down and not fair to Chinese kits.

I felt that Kirstin's initial comments were rather terse, verging on rude, and Matteo responded in kind but rather more politely. In fact I felt that he was very restrained.

 

[KirstinS]

If I might say so, you currently have a great reputation on this forum but you're doing yourself no favours whatsoever by you and your mate Kirstin goading Matteo is this way.

Having said that, you're helping Matteo no end by giving him to opportunity to describe the engineering work that's gone into the Bikee Bike innovative new system.

Matteo - your English is excellent and you're doing a great job at responding in a polite, calm and informative manner. Well done.

Goading was not my intention at all

And Woosh and are not mates! I've never met them or been there. I have bought a few bits and bobs over the years though and found them very good supplier by comparison to others I have used

 

[KirstinS]

I felt that Kirstin's initial comments were rather terse, verging on rude, and Matteo responded in kind but rather more politely. In fact I felt that he was very restrained.

Fair enough, on a re read aspects I can see that way. Not sure I agree totally with you on the responses but hey ho

Anyway, time will tell, I again wished him the best (though made a joke about testing a free kit)

And at this point shall step away

 

[Deleted member 25121]

Matteo might see things that way, but is it not that the reseller is the first point of contact for support?

Yes, the reseller is the first point of contact for support. However they rely on the OEM for ultimate backup, particularly when parts fail under warranty.

I bought a Bosch equipped bike partly because of their informative website, partly because of their countrywide support network, partly because of the German reputation of quality engineering, partly because of Bosch's reputation in automotive electronics and partly because I've worked with several of their divisions and have always been impressed with their electronics engineers.

I couldn't say the same of any Chinese ebike parts supplier.

 

[Woosh]

I couldn't say the same of any Chinese ebike parts supplier.

I only work with the largest Chinese manufacturers - so I can only tell you about how service and backup is organised within our supply chain.

1. We hold stock of spares in Southend.
2. Under warranty: straightforward replacement of the whole item if used less than a month, straightforward replacement of sub-assembly (LCD, motor, controller, cableset) within guarantee period. Outside the guarantee period: we make a judgement on whether the item was sub-standard in the first place, if it is, we simply replace it.
We always prioritise service over sale, that is why when stock is low, we turn off the affected item from the online shop and ask customers to ring if they need to buy the item urgently for their project. We then make a judgement on whether we can spare a unit and still keep the service going.
3. All the faulty items are sent back to the factories and usually replaced with new.
4. If we have any technical query that we cannot answer, we email the factory and get a solution usually in a week a two.

That's why I have programmers for the controllers and so on.

There is no mystery. Chinese factories are just as straightforward to deal with as you would expect from any large producers in the EU. We translate and augment their manuals with our input and keep all manuals online here.

I don't think the quality of service of Chinese motors, controllers, cablesets, LCDs is any less good than what you would get from European producers, except that we hold a few percents of stock for service to avoid delay. Better still, you can buy spares if you have to.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

I only work with the largest Chinese manufacturers - so I can only tell you about how service and backup is organised within our supply chain.

1. We hold stock of spares in Southend.
2. Under warranty: straightforward replacement of the whole item if used less than a month, straightforward replacement of sub-assembly (LCD, motor, controller, cableset) within guarantee period. Outside the guarantee period: we make a judgement on whether the item was sub-standard in the first place, if it is, we simply replace it.
We always prioritise service over sale, that is why when stock is low, we turn off the affected item from the online shop and ask customers to ring if they need to buy the item urgently for their project. We then make a judgement on whether we can spare a unit and still keep the service going.
3. All the faulty items are sent back to the factory which usually replace with new.
4. If we have any technical query that we cannot answer, we email the factory and get a solution usually in a week a two.

That's why I have programmers for the controllers and so on.

There is no mystery. Chinese factories are just as straightforward as you would expect from any large producers in the EU.

I don't think the quality of service of Chinese motors, controllers, cablesets, LCDs is any less good than what you would get from European producers, except that we hold a few percents of stock for service to avoid delay.

You're doing a great job and you have an excellent reputation on here.

An exceptional job in fact, unfortunately I fear that many of your UK competitors who simply buy in assembled bikes from China, one way or another, are at the other end of the scale.

 

[Woosh]

I fear that many of your UK competitors who simply buy in assembled bikes from China, one way or another, are at the other end of the scale.

If they imagine their bikes (and kits) never fail so make no provision to deal with support, that's their own fault, not their Chinese producers. I guess they won't last long if they don't have after sale customer support.
Matteo made a sweeping statement against Chinese producers. That prompted my reaction.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

If they imagine their bikes (and kits) never fail so make no provision to deal with support, that's their own fault, not their Chinese producers. I guess they won't last long if they don't have customer support.
Matteo made a sweeping statement against Chinese producers. That prompted my reaction.

It reflects back badly on the Chinese producers though.

If dealers of Bosch equipped bikes weren't up to scratch I'm sure Bosch would take actions, it's a pity Chinese producers don't do the same.

Bosch provides a support telephone number and mailing system for end user customers, do Chinese producers do this?

Contact

Whether you are an eBiker, dealer, manufacturer or journalist: you can find the telephone numbers and e-mail addresses of the Bosch eBike Team here – we'll be delighted to help you.

www.bosch-ebike.com

Do Chinese producers produce local language manuals to help their end users?

Let me say again, you're doing a good job but the vast majority of Chinese bike importers aren't.

Matteo's comments about them are a generalisation but unfortunately they are true of the large majority.

 

[Woosh]

It reflects back badly on the Chinese producers though.

If dealers of Bosch equipped bikes weren't up to scratch I'm sure Bosch would take actions, it's a pity Chinese producers don't do the same.

Bosch provides a support telephone number and mailing system for end user customers, do Chinese producers do this?

the difference is Bosch requires their resellers to apply for dealership, thus contractually tie their resellers to their support system.
If I wanted to sell on parts or bikes that I import, I will ask my resellers to sign my reseller contract for the same reasons.

Some members of the forum encourage other members to buy directly from China on Aliexpress or Chinese websites, thus making the latter members directly liable for their own imported goods.

Whose fault is it?

 

[Deleted member 25121]

Some members of the forum encourage other members to buy directly from China on Aliexpress or Chinese websites, thus making the latter members directly liable for their own imported goods.

Whose fault is it?

I suspect they all know the risk they're taking when buying direct from China. I've had some good experiences and some appalling experiences when buying electronic (non ebike) components from China, that's the risk I take when they're not available elsewhere worldwide.

I feel sorry for people buying cheap imported Chinese bikes from local internet suppliers and imagining they're going to get good support.

 

[Matteo from Bikee Bike]

Thanks ebike99 for understanding my hard job! It's normal to find people that get passionate when they see a new product on different forums as some of them have a family to feed with the current products. But I'm positive that someone like Woosh or Kirsten might want to start selling our product as well. Usually the more they get passionate at the beginning the more likely they'll going join the team...we are seeing that happening in Italy.

We just released the new video for those who missed it:

 

[KirstinS]

Thanks ebike99 for understanding my hard job! It's normal to find people that get passionate when they see a new product on different forums as some of them have a family to feed with the current products. But I'm positive that someone like Woosh or Kirsten might want to start selling our product as well. Usually the more they get passionate at the beginning the more likely they'll going join the team...we are seeing that happening in Italy.

We just released the new video for those who missed it:

Im just a consumer (enthusiastic one for sure!) I don't sell anything!

 

[harrys]

Why is lengthening a chain a non-starter for a kit? One needs a chain breaker to remove the front derailleur anyway on a mid drive install. Then you have to add some extra links. I guess it does add cost, and maybe a reseller will need to supply a full length chain with the kit to keep it complete.

 

[Woosh]

Why is lengthening a chain a non-starter for a kit? One needs a chain breaker to remove the front derailleur anyway on a mid drive install. Then you have to add some extra links. I guess it does add cost, and maybe a reseller will need to supply a full length chain with the kit to keep it complete.

A good kit needs to be easy to install. Do you remember your first conversion?

- reduce the possibility of errors and unforeseen complications
- lower labour cost

Also, from the reseller's point of view, a kit that is easy to install reduces support cost. 9 out of 10 of my customers don't do conversions for a living and probably 8 convert their bikes for the first time, so for them, ease of installation is a big deal.

If you install a Bafang BBS kit for example on a bike with triple chainring, you can disconnect and leave the front derailleur on its granny ring setting without having to remove it.

Note that there is no obvious way of refitting the chainguard and the smaller than the usual 44T chainring on most bikes, that's an extra concern:

 

[gw8izr]

To be honest none of the comments above would put me off this type of kit. I am absolutely confident that I could fit it without too much issue.

The extra cogs and jockeys in the chain might need a bit of extra cleaning and possibly a bit of noise but probably not going to be significant.

I like the fact that in the event of any form of mechanical failure of the add on drive you could restore the bike to normal operation with nothing more complicated than a chain splitter which is always in my carry kit. I also like the fact that I could use my existing longer cranks which I’ve had to go away from with my current kit. (I know I could buy aftermarket longer trike cranks - but I wouldn’t have needed to)

 

[Woosh]

To be honest none of the comments above would put me off this type of kit. I am absolutely confident that I could fit it without too much issue.

1. you will have to replace your chainring with the new chainring because the clutch is built inside it, so you can't reuse the old cranks anyway.
2. how would you fit the chainguard?

 

[gw8izr]

how would you fit the chainguard?

Well I wouldn’t I’ve never owned a bike with one.

Obviously you know your market, if you are selling mainly to commuters and that makes a big part of your business then the chain guard would be a significant issue.

Extra spares and another stream of support might be unattractive for a small part of your market but someone somewhere will probably go there “if” it takes off.

Something about this drive design appeals to my engineering background but predictions about reliability and simple popularity are so hard to predict, there are numerous really good technically good products that have failed simply because a mass market already existed.