New C5

[Deleted member 4366]

I took the time to look and found this page

http://www.grantsinclair.com/en/e-bike/iris-extreme.html

Lots of things wrong with this concept, where to start...

Aerodynamics: too much frontal area, sure it is better than a push bike but much worse than a vélomobile designed for speed.
There is apparently no number plate holder and lighting (that is obligatory)
The windscreen tipping up that way makes it harder to get in, it is also a security risk if it opens accidentally at speed. Don't think that can happen? It is in acrylic and speed can get up to 90 km/h on any major hill...
Steel trike chassis underneath, not a pure monocoque like most vélomobiles. An aluminium trike chassis would shave off a few kilos.

Technical: a 13.5 Ah 48 V battery that charges in an hour. Really? Where can I get one of those please?
750 W mid drive with 120 nm of torque, would that be made by Bafang?
8 speed so I presume either a Nexus or Alfine hub in the rear
55 kilos = 20 kg more than a sporty e-vélomobile and 15 kg more than a utility one.

This is an organic Transit Elf with a sexier body. The design clues look remarkably like some vélomobile concepts that were going around the vélomobile forums https://www.facebook.com/velomobiledesign

You shouldn't make any assumptions. there's plenty of OEM crank-drive motors other than Bafang. I have two batteries that can go from empty to fully-charged in 10 minutes. Together, they make 48v. You can have them if you want to arrange the shipping. It doesn't say Shimano hub gears, so it could be anything. Let's see what it is before knocking it. For £3000, I wouldn't expect much. Normally, you can't buy a decent naked trike or a set of bodywork for that, so an enclosed, electric one for that much looks to me to be good value. I'd pay that for a reasonable chassis with nice bodywork.

As far as I can see, if you take the spec at face value, it looks pretty good.

 

[grldtnr]

You shouldn't make any assumptions. there's plenty of OEM crank-drive motors other than Bafang. I have two batteries that can go from empty to fully-charged in 10 minutes. Together, they make 48v. You can have them if you want to arrange the shipping. It doesn't say Shimano hub gears, so it could be anything. Let's see what it is before knocking it. For £3000, I wouldn't expect much. Normally, you can't buy a decent naked trike or a set of bodywork for that, so an enclosed, electric one for that much looks to me to be good value. I'd pay that for a reasonable chassis with nice bodywork.

As far as I can see, if you take the spec at face value, it looks pretty good.

That's a very positive comment, d8veh! Given our inclement weather ,who would not want to try it out on cold, wet,windy commute to work ,for that, i would stump up the reallies!
I am keen to see it in the ABS, but shall wait after it comes to market before I 'll put a deposit down.

 

[anotherkiwi]

I agree with many of your points d8veh, I am trying to look at it with a critical eye. The world needs more of these vehicles. We also need a better law to cater for them as well. Low pollution individual transportation is in fashion but legislation prevents many interesting ideas getting to market.

I maintain that entering and exiting are not going to be as easy as they could be, logic would put the hinge on the front of the windscreen. If you are building a light vehicle that requires a number plate you design the place to put it and the obligatory lighting. The throttle on the pedelec version is obviously not legal. When you are launching a new product it is easier to get these things right the first time.

 

[AndyTyson]

The throttle on the pedelec version is obviously not legal. When you are launching a new product it is easier to get these things right the first time.

The throttle is only mentioned on the 750w version so looks looks cheaper version is pedelec only. Interesting marketing though as if they are going for pedelec spec which cuts off at 15ish mph then listing potential speed over 25mph may leave some people disappointed if that is only for fit cyclists to achieve?

 

[anotherkiwi]

Sorry mixed up the pages.

 

[flecc]

The throttle is only mentioned on the 750w version so looks looks cheaper version is pedelec only. Interesting marketing though as if they are going for pedelec spec which cuts off at 15ish mph then listing potential speed over 25mph may leave some people disappointed if that is only for fit cyclists to achieve?

Yes, they do say power while pedalling on the website for the pedelec version. They do seem to have acquainted themselves with the pedelc law so i'm sure it will be 25 kph (15.5mph) cutoff. The quote of 25mph might just be careless copying since the EU cutoff is 25 kph.
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[Woosh]

I am worried about the 25kph cutoff. If they go on cycle tracks, their width (94cm against 70cm for bikes) will be a problem for other cyclists. If they go on the roads, their 25kph speed makes them a nuisance for cars. Either way, they can be a nuisance. If they run out of battery, how are they going to be pushed? with the canopy up or down?

 

[flecc]

I am worried about the 25kph cutoff. If they go on cycle tracks, their width (94cm against 70cm for bikes) will be a problem for other cyclists. If they go on the roads, their 25kph speed makes them a nuisance for cars. Either way, they can be a nuisance. If they run out of battery, how are they going to be pushed? with the canopy up or down?

No need to worry, they'll never be seen on the roads or cyclepaths, probably never get into production.
.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I agree with many of your points d8veh, I am trying to look at it with a critical eye. The world needs more of these vehicles. We also need a better law to cater for them as well. Low pollution individual transportation is in fashion but legislation prevents many interesting ideas getting to market.

As I said in the other thread, I'm sure the change will come. It's just a question of when. The more of these types of vehicles we see, the quicker it'll happen. Cities are starting to ban cars. What then?

Can you imagine the school run with everyone using a one adult two kid 15 mph enclosed electric trike? Wouldn't the world be better for it? If I were the UK dictator, I'd make it illegal to take kids to school in a car and to use a car to commute to work less than 10 miles.

 

[AndyTyson]

I'd make it illegal to take kids to school in a car and to use a car to commute to work less than 10 miles.

Woohoo... I'm voting for you (not strictly needed in a dictatorship but never mind). I'd have nice quiet roads on my 11 mile commute, although I do like my cross country cycle instead of driving

 

[Live_Steam_Mad]

All models of the Panasonic powered Lafree have a very early power phase down compliant with Japanese law, even the export models. The power starts to reduce from 9.4 mph (15kph) and continuously reduces until zero power at just under 15 mph.

You can read how this works in my article on this link.

This article was written in relationship to the later unit which had a switchable high power mode which the Lafree models didn't have.
.

Ahh yes thanks, my Brother's LaFree Comfort Twist ST is from 2005 and cost 1200 GBP back then. That explains the early power cut off (9.4 MPH)! Even at that speed the pedal cadence is rather high, the gear ratio is too high on his bike on the top speed gears.

Acceleration of this e-trike at 250W will be only 1/2 that of an ebike because of having 2x the weight. That's a pity as it looses some of the excitement...

Regards,

Alistair G.

 

[D8ve]

Ahh yes thanks, my Brother's LaFree Comfort Twist ST is from 2005 and cost 1200 GBP back then. That explains the early power cut off (9.4 MPH)! Even at that speed the pedal cadence is rather high, the gear ratio is too high on his bike on the top speed gears.

Acceleration of this e-trike at 250W will be only 1/2 that of an ebike because of having 2x the weight. That's a pity as it looses some of the excitement...

Regards,

Alistair G.

Almost but not half. It's total weight so bike plus rider, say 75 kg rider +25 kg bike =100 kg an extra 25 for the velo gives 125kg so 20% slower but after cutout is will be lower resistance anyway.

 

[flecc]

the gear ratio is too high on his bike on the top speed gears.

This sounds like it was probably the Lafree ST with the SRAM S7 seven speed hub gear. Initially the ST was equipped with the SRAM P5 five speed hub gear.
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[Live_Steam_Mad]

I am more worried about its crosswind sensitivity when not occupied.

I am more worried about it's crosswind sensitivity when someone is in it and I am trying to overtake them in my car. It's hard enough trying to stay upright on a normal bike / ebike when there is a strong crosswind, and can you imagine the forces on that etrike with it's enormous surface area on the sides... they would surely end up swerving into me? Not overly dangerous I don't suppose but very scarey?

Regards,

Alistair G.

 

[Live_Steam_Mad]

Almost but not half. It's total weight so bike plus rider, say 75 kg rider +25 kg bike =100 kg an extra 25 for the velo gives 125kg so 20% slower but after cutout is will be lower resistance anyway.

Whoops forgot the weight of the rider to be included. Good point!

AG

 

[Live_Steam_Mad]

This sounds like it was probably the Lafree ST with the SRAM S7 seven speed hub gear. Initially the ST was equipped with the SRAM P5 five speed hub gear.
.

It is the 5 speeds Comfort ST with internal rear hub gear and rear roller brake and front drum brake (the top model of the year it was made).

Best Regards,

Alistair G.

 

[flecc]

It is the 5 speeds Comfort ST with internal rear hub gear and rear roller brake and front drum brake (the top model of the year it was made).

Best Regards,

Alistair G.

Thanks Alastair. It was the tail end of the production of the ST in 2005/6 that got the 7 speed hub, also roller brake etc. They hadn't been selling enough to satisfy Giant so I guess the upgrade was to make it look better value. There wasn't much difference in the gear range, almost all the extra range of the 7 speed being downwards to lower first gears.
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[craiggor]

I have read the EU regulation on approval of L category vehicles 2013 again. It does sound like anyone wanting to build and register a high power recumbent/velomobile will not be able to,if the seat height is lower than 400mm on 3/4 wheelers 540mm on 2 wheelers. Looks like none of these bikes would be eligible for the M.S.V.A. due to their low seat height.

If you can't take a M.S.V.A due to low seat height I doubt you could get type approval for mass production.How high is the seat on the new Sinclair.

 

[flecc]

If you can't take a M.S.V.A due to low seat height I doubt you could get type approval for mass production.

There is no type approval needed, these are specifically exempted in the Two and Three Wheel Type Approval Legislation 168/2013.

The exemption is in Section 2.2.(k):

"vehicles equipped with any seating position of the driver or rider having an R-point height ≤ 540 mm in case of categories L1e, L3e and L4e or ≤ 400 mm in case of categories L2e, L5e, L6e and L7e."

Since they are exempted from type approval for manufacturers and there is no MSVA provision, there should be no problem with creating one if keeping to the weight and power limits for quadripeds, 350 kilos and 4kW.

After all, our pedelecs have their exemption alongside in 2.2.(h), and we can freely use our home created ones on the roads without MSVA.
.

 

[Geebee]

15ish mph then listing potential speed over 25mph may leave some people disappointed if that is only for fit cyclists to achieve?

It may well be realistic with pedaling , my DIY pedal only velomobile could maintain 40 kph on the flat as a fast cruise and 60 kph was a prolonged sprint speed.