New battery tech coming soon

[Deus]

Yet another coming soon new battery tech

https://www.advancedsciencenews.com/the-worlds-most-efficient-lithium-sulfur-battery/?fbclid=IwAR3o8BcJKgLvni6b-H15QkGBuujutI-GS3uAqrluisGw218BUw50Dy_VxbE

 

[Woosh]

very promising solution.

 

[RobF]

Yes, it is promising, and yes, we have seen it all before.

But one day one of these laboratory batteries will come off.

Looks like they are saying it could have a capacity about four times that of current batteries.

That would be a genuine leap forward meaning a 500wh battery could be about a quarter of the size it is now.

Or a current sized 500wh battery could be 2,000wh.

I've long thought batteries are the weak point of ebikes.

The motors, crank or hub, do a decent job, but battery range is always the elephant in the room.

 

[Nealh]

Time will tell and maybe 5 years before anything new trickles down the ebike world.
We see a few battery stories then they just die.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

Oh dear oh dear, yet another organisation looking to raise money to develop a radical battery.

Let's face it folks, has anybody even heard of Monash University in Melbourne, Australia?

 

[Woosh]

yes, I have. My friend Kevin A. teaches computing there.
it's a very good one.

 

[Woosh]

Yes, it is promising, and yes, we have seen it all before.

they work on structural solutions to the problem of Li-S electrodes breaking down by charging and discharging. The physics of lithiation is well understood, but until now, the solutions have not progressed much because the machinery to make Lithium batteries can't be revolutionised.
So, their angle is simple: like building something with steel frame instead of wood frame. You can have larger spans without changing the basic plan. Larger spans between the active clumps of active ingredients let in more Lithium and more easily, leading to higher areal storage density.
Their work finds/uses existing stronger binders used in other areas and how to use them with current machinery. It is progressive but promises a pretty quick return. They have received money invested by battery manufacturers.

 

[Nealh]

For any new chem used it will take years of R&D and will need to significantly not only hold much more mah even more so then 21700 of about 5000mah but also be able to deliver good high current, there are plenty that do up to 10a in both current major forms available. The other side is life cycle ageing and how they will hold up.

 

[flecc]

I've long thought batteries are the weak point of ebikes.

The motors, crank or hub, do a decent job, but battery range is always the elephant in the room.

The same for all e-vehicles since powered vehicles first appeared. In the early years of the last century, the electric car was the car of choice, vastly superior in almost every way than the petrol and steam cars of the time.

The one failing was the short range due to their heavy lead acid batteries confining them to local town use. Despite that though, large electric vans persisted and I remember both Harrods and John Lewis electric vans delivering in London right up to the late 1960s. And of course there were the ubiqitous electric milk floats trundling slowly around.

But it's only with lithium batteries that ranges are now getting long enough for cars, with up to 500 miles now on the market and ultra-rapid charging thereafter adding 100 to 160 miles per 15 minutes charging time.
.

 

[Woosh]

For any new chem used it will take years of R&D and will need to significantly not only hold much more mah even more so then 21700 of about 5000mah but also be able to deliver good high current, there are plenty that do up to 10a in both current major forms available. The other side is life cycle ageing and how they will hold up.

It's not new chemistry, only how to build physically a more flexible electrode. They learn from soap powders and other examples where binders are known to be strong. Then use it in the slurry mix that makes up the electrode. Think of GRP if you like. It's not a new idea but the idea of doing away with organic solvent in the slurry mix and replace it with water (if using soap binders) is attractive. Stronger binders lead to thicker electrodes - cheaper and more robust. They managed 200 cycles with Li-S batteries with 99% retention of capacity and more than double the charge.

QUOTE:

Abstract
Lithium-sulfur batteries can displace lithium-ion by delivering higher specific energy. Presently, however, the superior energy performance fades rapidly when the sulfur electrode is loaded to the required levels—5 to 10 mg cm−2— due to substantial volume change of lithiation/delithiation and the resultant stresses. Inspired by the classical approaches in particle agglomeration theories, we found an approach that places minimum amounts of a high-modulus binder between neighboring particles, leaving increased space for material expansion and ion diffusion. These expansion-tolerant electrodes with loadings up to 15 mg cm−2 yield high gravimetric (>1200 mA·hour g−1) and areal (19 mA·hour cm−2) capacities. The cells are stable for more than 200 cycles, unprecedented in such thick cathodes, with Coulombic efficiency above 99%.

 

[nigelbb]

The same for all e-vehicles since powered vehicles first appeared. In the early years of the last century, the electric car was the car of choice, vastly superior in almost every way than the petrol and steam cars of the time.

The one failing was the short range due to their heavy lead acid batteries confining them to local town use. Despite that though, large electric vans persisted and I remember both Harrods and John Lewis electric vans delivering in London right up to the late 1960s. And of course there were the ubiqitous electric milk floats trundling slowly around.

But it's only with lithium batteries that ranges are now getting long enough for cars, with up to 500 miles now on the market and ultra-rapid charging thereafter adding 100 to 160 miles per 15 minutes charging time.
.

I wanted to buy a brand new Smart Fortwo to replace my 10 year old Brabus model. Unfortunately Smart have switched entirely to electric power & it's impossible to buy a new petrol driven one any more. There really isn't much incentive to buy when the car is more expensive & range is only 70 miles instead of over 200 miles.

 

[Nealh]

It depends under what criteria used did the 99% retention of capacity occurred, it the charge/discharge current known ?

 

[flecc]

I wanted to buy a brand new Smart Fortwo to replace my 10 year old Brabus model. Unfortunately Smart have switched entirely to electric power & it's impossible to buy a new petrol driven one any more. There really isn't much incentive to buy when the car is more expensive & range is only 70 miles instead of over 200 miles.

Indeed, Smart are well behind on this, though of course they mainly sell to a local driving market. They wasted too much time trying to succeed with sodium-salt batteries before switching to lithium.

Recent e-car models have at least 150 mile range and often much more. A small e-car you might consider suitable instead is Renault's latest Zoe ZE50 model with quoted 240 mile range. An independent test report on the most powerful version said this about range:

"On the launch, covering some serious climbs and descents, we got a calculated range of 223 miles on a charge, having covered around 130 miles over the two legs of the route."

These review test drivers are usually quite heavy footed, so that easily exceeds your present Brabus range.

 

[Woosh]

It depends under what criteria used did the 99% retention of capacity occurred, it the charge/discharge current known ?

they discharge it at 0.5C. Pretty useable for e-bikes.

PS: 99% retention: that seems a bid dodgy. They use some formula that I have not looked at.

Here are the test charts:

 

[Nealh]

Tbh I don't think we will see much difference to what is already being used in lithium cells, it's easy for them to fudge data so we don't really know what we are looking at.
It all looks double dutch to me, I can't see this coming to the market.
Their is no info on actual cell capacity used or current the cell is a capable of.

Currently the like of MJ1 & M36 are having good cycle life of 96% at 200 cycles and 94/95% at 500 cycles this is independent research/testing carried out by the good guys on ES for all to see. They are using the same test criteria on various top cells and some are worse then others PF esp is not a long lifer on cycles though does retain 80% after 700 cycles but way down on the 92% of M36.

 

[mike killay]

As far as I am concerned, unless I can buy it and fit it to my bike, all this 'latest battery technology' is just smoke and mirrors.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

New technology has to start somewhere, don't dismiss it simply because you can't buy it now. If that had been the case we wouldn't even have the wheel....

 

[Woosh]

As far as I am concerned, unless I can buy it and fit it to my bike, all this 'latest battery technology' is just smoke and mirrors.

they've been doing research work on Li-S batteries since 1960s.
Li-S batteries for cars are nearly ready, still have to wait for possibly 5-10 more years. For bikes, a bit longer.
but that's the direction of progress.

from wiki:
As of 2015 few companies had been able to commercialize the technology on an industrial scale. Companies such as Sion Power have partnered with Airbus Defence and Space to test their lithium sulfur battery technology. Airbus Defense and Space successfully launched their prototype High Altitude Pseudo-Satellite (HAPS) aircraft powered by solar energy during the day and by lithium sulfur batteries at night in real life conditions during an 11-day flight. The batteries used in the test flight utilized Sion Power's Li–S cells that provide 350 W⋅h/kg.[55] Sion claims to be in the process of volume manufacturing with availability by end of 2017.[56]

British firm OXIS Energy developed prototype lithium sulfur batteries that are currently operating in small scale, commercial, test applications. As of June 2015, they planned to sell its energy storage batteries from 2016.[57][58] Together with Imperial College London and Cranfield University, they published equivalent-circuit-network models for its cells.[59] With Lithium Balance of Denmark they built a prototype scooter battery system primarily for the Chinese market. The prototype battery has a capacity of 1.2 kWh using 10 Ah Long Life cells, weighs 60% less than lead acid batteries with a significant increase in range.[60] They also built a 3U, 3,000 W⋅h Rack-Mounted Battery that weighs only 25 kg and is fully scalable.[61] They anticipate their Lithium-Sulfur batteries will cost about $200/kWh in mass production.[62] The firm has also been involved in the European Consortium for Lithium-Sulphur Power for Space Environments (ECLIPSE) H2020 project. This project is developing high-capacity Li–S batteries for satellites and launchers.[63]

Sony, which also commercialized the first lithium-ion battery, plans to introduce lithium–sulfur batteries to the market in 2020.[64]

Monash University’s Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering in Melbourne, Australia developed an ultra-high capacity Li-S battery that has been manufactured by partners at the Fraunhofer Institute for Material and Beam Technology in Germany. It is claimed the battery can provide power to a smartphone for five days. [65]

 

[nigelbb]

Indeed, Smart are well behind on this, though of course they mainly sell to a local driving market. They wasted too much time trying to succeed with sodium-salt batteries before switching to lithium.

Recent e-car models have at least 150 mile range and often much more. A small e-car you might consider suitable instead is Renault's latest Zoe ZE50 model with quoted 240 mile range. An independent test report on the most powerful version said this about range:

Unfortunately apart from limited range that demonstrates another enormous flaw of current electric cars as that Zoe ZE50 is priced at £25K ie around £10K or 65% more expensive than the petrol powered Brabus ForTwo I wanted. Performance is worse too with 0-60 11.5 sec vs 9.5 sec.

I can't see any incentive to purchase an electric car.

 

[flecc]

Unfortunately apart from limited range that demonstrates another enormous flaw of current electric cars as that Zoe ZE50 is priced at £25K ie around £10K or 65% more expensive than the petrol powered Brabus ForTwo I wanted. Performance is worse too with 0-60 11.5 sec vs 9.5 sec.

I can't see any incentive to purchase an electric car.

For many that's true. However I wasn't trying to match the Brabus performance when I mentioned the Zoe by size. For just slightly more than the Zoe you could have the latest Nissan Leaf like mine with 0 - 62mph in 7.9 seconds and done in inimitable fashion.

It all depends on what one wants, what suits and whether the e-car can be afforded. Running costs are miniscule, 200 mpg equivalent easily achieved, no road tax and many other freebees and you could have knocked £8k from the Zoe outlay by renting the battery if your mileage justified it.

Also there's advantages in running an e-car that are only really appreciated when you use one all the time. In traffic, and most of us experience only too much of that, nothing else comes close in so many ways. Best expressed by saying, like most e-car owners, that I never want an i.c. car again, and that's after 66 years of driving a huge variety of them. (I'm ex trade.)
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