new 12 ah panasonic battery

[jac]

hi i just found this new battery on ebay austria it seems have different chemistry also number of charges possibly 1000 but i am realy only guessing maybe a german speaker can confirm details


eBay Österreich: 12 Ah AKKU für Panasonic Mittelmotor 26V,Flyer,Kalkhoff (Artikel 330475569322 endet 21.10.10 20:00:10 MESZ)


jim

 

[carpetbagger]

Hi Scott,
do you know when they will be available,i thought i had read somewhere that it would be october,but its cutting it a bit fine now !

 

[tangent]

Any ideas on prices yet? Or prices on the 2011 bikes? I notice that your web site does not list these yet.

 

[brucehawsker]

Is the casing the same size for all the batteries? On some Panasonic incanations the vertical height is constrained??

 

[tillson]

Is the casing the same size for all the batteries? On some Panasonic incanations the vertical height is constrained??

It's hard to tell from the few pictures that I have seen, but the new batteries appear to be the same height as the old 10Ah ones, but slightly wider.

 

[flecc]

There shouldn't be any height problem since the new ones fit all Kalkhoffs. Since the smallest frame Kalkhoff only just accommodates the standard 10 Ah battery with hardly any spare clearance, the new 12 and 18 Ah tyes should be ok for all e-bikes using the new version Panasonic units.
.

 

[eddieo]

Is the 15 Ah Swiss flyer Panasonic a wider battery? maybe this is where the confusion stems from.........I thought the new larger capacity Kalkhoff batteries where the same size as original 10 Ah

 

[tillson]

Is the 15 Ah Swiss flyer Panasonic a wider battery? maybe this is where the confusion stems from.........I thought the new larger capacity Kalkhoff batteries where the same size as original 10 Ah

I think that the Swiss Flyer battery is much wider than the standard 10 Ah one. So much so that the pedal crank is wider to accommodate it.

From what I understand, these new 12 and 18 Ah batteries utilise a different battery technology allowing the cells to be packed into a case which is only slightly wider than the original 10Ah case. None of the problems associated with the Swiss Flyer design being applicable.

 

[LafRo]

The Flyer 15Ah battery is much wider then the original 10Ah, I think more than an inch. The original battery bracket needs to be replaced for installing it and for some models even the cranks.
Coming November all Dutch Flyers will be delivered with a 12Ah battery. Later the 15Ah battery will be replaced by a 16Ah model.
Mind that the Flyers use premium Panasonic cells. The 18Ah battery from Kalkhoff is a product developed by Derby themselves with different cells.

 

[flecc]

The 18Ah battery from Kalkhoff is a product developed by Derby themselves with different cells.

I understand that the Derby Cycles 12 and 18 Ah batteries are actually BMZ gmbh products, slogan "Chinese manufacture, German quality".

Good to hear that BikeTec Flyer are still supporting the newest Panasonic 12 and 16 Ah ones in addition Robert.
.

 

[tillson]

The Lifecycle is also twice as much as any other on the market.

That's good news. No doubt this claim will be backed up with a 4 year guarantee. (Twice that of anything else on the market)

 

[indalo]

That's good news. No doubt this claim will be backed up with a 4 year guarantee. (Twice that of anything else on the market)

That's a very good point Tillson. I say that because anyone actually researching the costs of electric bike ownership would probably find the replacement battery cost jaw-droppingly expensive at current prices (excuse the pun.)

If the industry is serious about increasing the market in electric assist bicycles, then they really must address the battery cost issue or provide longer guarantees. Recently, I looked up the cost of battery replacement on a number of popular pedelecs and I was staggered to discover that, in some cases, the price equated roughly to, not one, but two fairly decent push bikes! That's just ridiculous.

When you look at how the car industry has improved warranties over recent times to the point where some are providing 5 year, even 7 year, guarantees on many components, (I know that doesn't include batteries & other consumable/perishable parts) then I feel sure the electric bicycle industry could try harder.

Do we really want electric bikes to be like computer printers & cartridges where it can be cheaper just to throw away your printer and buy a new one than actually buy a replacement cartridge in some cases? We have become used to just throwing away things that break down like toasters, kettles, etc but, even today, in parts of eastern europe, there's a little shop down the street where a man repairs all those things at low cost. He makes a living and people are happy to use his services. I really don't want to see electric bicycles regarded as throw-away items on account of ridiculous ongoing costs so I'd like to see something done in regard to battery cost.

The idea of government subsidy has occurred to me but I don't actually think that would be right in this case as I feel that would simply remove any incentive for battery providers to reduce costs. As the batteries themselves aren't really all that sophisticated, it seems to me that there is simply a huge mark-up on the retail price. They are charging, (God, I'm doing it again!) what they think the market will tolerate and they get away with it as there are so few players involved so no competition. Now, I can refill my printer cartridge cheaply but I'm not sure where I can readily lay hands on the bits I'd need to replace the cells in my battery. Hey-ho!

 

[tillson]

You are absolutely right about the cost of replacement batteries, they are a real ebike killer. Not only are replacements jaw-droopingly expensive, the life of the battery is exaggerated. The present claim of 500 re-charging cycles is well short of reality.

The claim of over 1000 charging cycles for these new batteries sounds fabulous , but we will have to wait and see if the warranty is as impressive as the words. Anyone can make groundbreaking claims.

On the plus side, if these batteries live up to the claims made about them, it could be a step in the right direction in terms of ebikes making ecconomic sense.

 

[carpetbagger]

if the claims of 500 re charges is way out then the batteries should be changed or a new one supplied at a heavily discounted price. I know exactly how many mine has done and i will be less than happy if it doesn't come close.

 

[eddieo]

while the price of battery replacement is a bit daunting and cost unlikely to improve. Its simply the price one has to pay for assistance and making biking pleasurable....I dread to think what we pay for fuel for the car over similar periods.

maybe we need battery fund, a bit like when you give up smoking and put the equivalent money in a kitty. Soooo you cycle 100 miles this week that is approx 4 gallons of fuel = £18 odd in battery kitty

 

[jac]

flyer bikes give a five year waranty on electrical parts plus 2 years on old type battery but new battery could give 30,000 miles which seems pretty good for the money

jim

 

[tillson]

It's all very fuzzy. We have tried to establish exactly what a warranty is before and it seems mean that the battery is ok if it holds more than 80% of the stated capacity. And to be fair, 50 Cycles have always honoured this.

My present battery is now 22 months old, has been used for about 5500 miles and had the equivellant of 220 charge cycles. The battery is well below the 80% capacity and won't complete my 20 mile round trip commute without a charge at work. The battery is out of warranty as it is a replacement for one purchased in July 2008.

To expect a replacement for my battery is unreasonable because it is out of warrant and I have always had a battery which holds more than 80% of the original capacity throughout the warranty period. This has been achieved through a succession of replacements.

I suppose that the point I am making is that these marvellous battery claims should be treated with caution. Forget any hype about long life and more than 1000 charge cycles. The ONLY thing which counts is a reliable warranty. If the manufacturer won't underwrite their claims with one then they don't have confidence in their products.

I'll probably end up buying one of these 18Ah batteries, more out of lack of choice than anything else. But it will be interesting to see if they double the warranty to match the claimed double life of the battery.

I'd still buy an ebike again knowing what I know now, but I do find all of this false hype and the outlandish claims irritating. There was an article in a recent A2B magazine about an ebike manufacturer claiming a running cost of something riddiculous like 0.001p per mile. Completely neglecting the very real fact that ebike batteries are crap and need replacing at over inflated prices at regular intervals.

 

[flecc]

e-bike Ni-Cad batteries were claimed to be good for 1000 charges, but that could only be approached with a combination of complex care and treatment rules and occasional specialised charge reconditioning done by suppliers

e-bike NiMh batteries were said to be good for 1000 charges originally, but struggled to reach past 400 full charges with enough capacity left to be really useful. They could still be useful for ever-shorter journeys over time though.

Lithium batteries when introduced also failed to get anywhere near their claimed 500 to 800 charges, and even now I've yet to know of one completing the equivalent of 500 full charges with a sensible range left. Unlike NiMh, they often can't have extended life for short trips since their life is frequently age limited by cutting out under load due to their voltage drop characteristics.

LiFePO4 types were initially said to be good for a 10 year life with no charge limit indication, but in practice the early indications are of a 2000 charges life at moderate discharges but 1000 charges at the higher loads that e-bikes sometimes subject them to. Since it's early days, I still don't know of anyone actually reaching the 1000 charges, though some are approaching it now.

Therefore I treat all introductory claims with reservation, real lives being invariably shorter over the whole of battery development history.
.

 

[carpetbagger]

How would i know that my battery is less than 80% ? Would it only charge to 4 lights or would it charge to 5 but with reduced performance ?

 

[tillson]

How would i know that my battery is less than 80% ? Would it only charge to 4 lights or would it charge to 5 but with reduced performance ?

The Panasonic battery has a diagnostic system built in. Press and hold the battery test button on the battery. Initially it will display the level of charge in the battery. If you keep holding the button in, the lights will go out momentarily, and then re-illuminate. This now shows the capacity status of the batter. Each light representing 2Ah. So, if all 5 light up, the battery has a capacity of 10Ah. If only 4 light, 8 Ah and so on.