new 12 ah panasonic battery

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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I am still a little baffled by the talk of better efficiency being achieved through the crank motor. The motors themselves are very similar.
The motor similarity isn't the issue David, it's the operating regions as I've explained above.

An electric motor of the types used on e-bikes has well understood characteristics.

They start from no revs with minimum power, maximum torque and maximum inefficiency.

As the revs rise, the power gradually increases and the torque gradually decreases until the the point where they cross as shown when plotted, at around half torque and nearing full power, but the inefficiency remains very high during that period.

That point is typically around 8 to 9 mph on a 15.5 mph e-bike, more rarely at extremes of 7 to 10 mph.

From that speed point the power rises and the efficiency gradually starts to rise until it reaches it's maximum, typically around 13.5 mph on a 15.5 mph bike, falling fractionally thereafter.

It follows that when a hub motor bike is running at around it's optimum power/torque compromise and hill climbing speed of around 8/9 mph, it's at around half revs and inefficiency is high with much more current consumed than when at the maximum efficiency region of around cruising speed on the flat.

Since a crank drive motor drives through the gears, falling road speed due to conditions doesn't necessarily mean motor revs drop into the inefficient regions, a lower gear chosen allowing the motor to carry on spinning in the maximum efficiency region at all times.

To get emotive e-bike issues out of the picture, there is a valid comparison with cars here.

With a car having a very large engine and manual gearbox, one can neglect to change down for a hill and punch up it in a high gear on sheer power alone. This is the hub motor equivalent, power substitutng for efficiency in those circumstances.

Try that with a small engine car and it will promptly stall, changing down is absolutely necessary. Doing that enables the smaller engine to do the job less wastefully than the big fixed gear engine.

This is not just theory. I know from experience that at my age and fitness I would struggle to get near 50 miles on your 518 Wh battery on a moderate route in my area, more like 40 miles on a good day, but I can reach 50 miles on a 260 Wh Panasonic battery.

Even when using power all the time and high power mode freely on hills, on the Panasonic unit I could repeatedly do 35 miles with the 260 Wh battery on the hilliest routes. That's the equivalent of 70 miles on yours which for me is out of the question with the hills round here. In fact some of them I can't climb at all on your bike type, but I can climb any of them with the Panasonic unit, even 1 in 3 with it's far lower peak maximum power.

The difference in both range and ability is the efficiency of driving through the gears.

All that said, I love hub motor bikes as well and there's much to be said for their simplicity, their more abundant power and the often greater flexibility on how the power is used. And there are many territorial circumstances where the balance of advantages is in their favour.

I fully understand that you prefer to use those and have that set of advantages and I respect that valid choice. Long may all customers have such a good choice of systems on high quality e-bikes, try both and choose to suit themselves.
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NRG

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 6, 2009
2,592
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Nicely summarised Flecc, nothing to really add other than I think of hub bikes as being stuck in top gear all the time and crank drives of being coupled to a gearbox...also the question of freewheel ability and drag is better on the crank drive systems when compared to the typical Bafang implementation.
 

jac

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 1, 2007
315
0
as i understand it if the battery say shows 2 lights of charge and then you carry on and hold buutton down for 10 seconds the battery should show 5 light if it doesent show 5 lights i asume something is wrong same as if there are 5 lights of charge 10 second test should show 5 lights

jim
 

Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
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Sevenoaks Kent
All that said, I love hub motor bikes as well and there's much to be said for their simplicity, their more abundant power and the often greater flexibility on how the power is used. And there are many territorial circumstances where the balance of advantages is in their favour.

I fully understand that you prefer to use those and have that set of advantages and I respect that valid choice. Long may all customers have such a good choice of systems on high quality e-bikes, try both and choose to suit themselves.
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Thanks for your considered response Tony, it all makes sense.

I must say though, I whole heartedly agree with your last two paragraphs. vive la différence! :D

All the best

David
 

jac

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 1, 2007
315
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i dont think test is dependent on charge state if battery is showing 2 light worth of charge i still get 5 lights on 10 second test

jim
 

jbond

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 29, 2010
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Ware, Herts
www.voidstar.com
Nicely summarised Flecc, nothing to really add other than I think of hub bikes as being stuck in top gear all the time and crank drives of being coupled to a gearbox...also the question of freewheel ability and drag is better on the crank drive systems when compared to the typical Bafang implementation.
Remember. The electric bicycle with the greatest range is the one where you don't use the assist! So for out-right range, you want the design to positively discourage you from using assist. I think this is what the Panasonic chain drive system with pedal torque sensor does. And that's the real reason for it's increased range.

If electric motors really have a small operating range for maximum efficiency then we'd want to gear the motor to the crank cadence because the rider will typically change gear to keep the crank cadence constant. The motor would then be running at effectively constant speed. This argues for a Panasonic-Cyclone layout and the problem is packaging and arranging for low drag freewheels to be in the right places in the system so that the motor and/or the rider can freewheel with as little drag as possible. But back in the real world, electric motors actually have quite a wide speed range where torque and efficiency are pretty much flat. So in reality there's very little need to change the gearing of the motor. Now we're back to friction drives, separate chains or a hub with internal gears. As far as I can tell, there's very little drag from the bearings, freewheel and planetary gears in current Tongxin, Cute or Bafang hubs. So range and efficiency are really about controller strategies. I suspect that a hub motor with a Panasonic torque sensor and controller would be virtually identical in range to the full Panasonic system.

If you have a twist grip throttle or full power pedelec, it encourages you to use full throttle. A thumb throttle encourages you a bit less. Perhaps what we actually need is a variable power knob with a cruise control. But then there's still the awkwardness of adjusting the variable power on the fly. Which leads to the torque sensor approach where you don't have to think about it at all. Put more effort in, get more assist. As discussed elsewhere, what I then want is to break the law by making the speed unlimited. If aerodynamics, rolling friction and gradient mean I can pedal at 20, I still want the extra motor power to push that 20 up to 25. I don't want the motor to just cut out and freewheel because it's maximum speed is 20 (or 15).
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,252
3,197
Is this going to be backed up with a guarantee to match the fabulous claims? There are one or two, "abouts" in there and mention of 5 or 6 years.

With respect, I could produce a graphic showing marvellous ground breaking battery. What actually counts is 1) Does it live up to the claims. 2) Is the manufacturer going to put his money where his graphics are and guarantee the product to perform as advertised. ie 5 year guarantee.
 

eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
5,070
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Is this going to be backed up with a guarantee to match the fabulous claims? There are one or two, "abouts" in there and mention of 5 or 6 years.

With respect, I could produce a graphic showing marvellous ground breaking battery. What actually counts is 1) Does it live up to the claims. 2) Is the manufacturer going to put his money where his graphics are and guarantee the product to perform as advertised. ie 5 year guarantee.
I will be waiting for clarification before I commit on a new bike as well......But my concern is, its a new type of battery? so a bit of unknown? is that correct?

a 5 year guarantee would indeed be ground breaking........
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
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So range and efficiency are really about controller strategies. I suspect that a hub motor with a Panasonic torque sensor and controller would be virtually identical in range to the full Panasonic system.
Although I agree with much you've said, I don't fully agree here, ok in theory but not in practice. Although the power/torque spread of our motors is reasonably wide, it still has a narrower area of maximum advantage and it's this area we depend on so much with the extreme limitation of power that the law permits us. So some gearing is really necessary, though as I've written elsewhere, two motor gears would suffice to cover our needs within present speed/power law restriction.

We do actually have the type you propose,the Kalkhoff Agattu F has the Panasonic front hub motor coupled to the standard unit's torque sensor and controller system. On test it did not have the high range possibility of the usual unit model, and that wasn't in a hilly area. In a hilly area it would be even more disadvantaged.

Therefore Panasonic's latest strategy on these is braking regeneration by the front motor and a large batch of these bikes are on two year trial in Japan to see if they really can do the same job more cheaply.
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NRG

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 6, 2009
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I don't agree either :)

If I didn't want assist I would have bought a normal lightweight bike. I want my electric bike to assist me when I need it most and allow me to cycle normally when I don't. This Panasonic system is simply more effective in what it does compared to a hub motor hence the greater range. If you look at the power plots on ES for both geared and none geared motors you will see that torque is nomwhere near flat vs RPM, power consumption rises very quickly as soon as the motor slows from it's most efficient RPM. As Flecc says a simple two speed gear setting would only be needed to greatly improve hub motors.
 

jbond

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 29, 2010
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Ware, Herts
www.voidstar.com
I don't agree either :)

If I didn't want assist I would have bought a normal lightweight bike. I want my electric bike to assist me when I need it most and allow me to cycle normally when I don't. This Panasonic system is simply more effective in what it does compared to a hub motor hence the greater range. If you look at the power plots on ES for both geared and none geared motors you will see that torque is nomwhere near flat vs RPM, power consumption rises very quickly as soon as the motor slows from it's most efficient RPM. As Flecc says a simple two speed gear setting would only be needed to greatly improve hub motors.
I'll have to dig out the curves for power-efficiency-torque vs rpm. The ones I've seen all have torque along the X-axis.

There's an old thread from Flecc http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/technical/716-drive-through-gears-e-bikes.html arguing that driving through the gears is less efficient than driving direct. Curious that we're reaching a different conclusion 3 years later.

Multi-gear hub motors would be quite a challenge to engineer!

I still think the torque sensor control has a big impact on the range of the Panasonic, perhaps at least as much as any extra efficiency from the drivetrain. One other possible reason for this. Full bore acceleration from 0-10mph sucks battery capacity. It's just about the worst operating regime. Perhaps the torque sensor encourages you to accept much less acceleration and assist during this.

I liked your comment "If I didn't want assist I would have bought a normal lightweight bike." ... "allow me to cycle normally when I don't". Yes, that is a dream; An E-bike that compromises normal bicycle behaviiour as little as possible. So least weight, least drag, just enough assist.
 

NRG

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 6, 2009
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:D I like to dream!
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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There's an old thread from Flecc http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/technical/716-drive-through-gears-e-bikes.html arguing that driving through the gears is less efficient than driving direct. Curious that we're reaching a different conclusion 3 years later.

Multi-gear hub motors would be quite a challenge to engineer!
That thread was demonstrating that for many in flatter areas hub motors can be more efficient since there were none of the substantial gearing efficiency losses due to their being almost always hub gears used with crank drives like Panasonic at that time, and hardly any choice anyway. I've made the same observation about hub motors at the end of my response to David of Wisper so remain consistent.

However, the article still ended in the second part by saying that for optimum hill climbing, geared systems were the way to go.

Since then things have moved on anyway, there being a number of more efficient derailleur equipped crank drive systems now from different manufacturers. In addition we have the new generation of more efficient hub gears from Shimano and SRAM which reduce the losses I was speaking of, so that article really needs to be brought up to date in respect of the changes.

A two speed epicyclic hub using a single epicyclic is possible of course, but as you say, it presents some difficulty in implementation.
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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0-10mph sucks battery capacity. It's just about the worst operating regime. Perhaps the torque sensor encourages you to accept much less acceleration and assist during this.
Actually the opposite on the standard Panasonic system. Maximum power is only available from 0 to 9.4 mph, then phasing down towards no power at just under 15 mph. Coupled with this is that the magnetic flux torque sensing system used is most sensitive at low rotations means power delivery and current consumption are maximised in that acceleration phase. In practice that means I've been able to do the odd wheelie off the mark on the flat with the lighter Panasonic equipped bikes like the Lafree Twist Lite.

By contrast I'm unable to wheelie on the flat with my rear hub-motor bike that's ideally suited to it, short frame, heavily weight biased at the rear, saddle near to the rear wheel axis, 20" wheel leverage advantage, peak 1000 watts power. It will wheelie up a 1 in 4 hill though. :eek:

Panasonic unit power delivery explanation
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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