Need Help To Derestrict Ezee Torq

[frank9755]

Oh dear! I can't see the new Torq selling so well now. I always thought the 'derestrict' option was a core part of the proposition. Now they've neutered the motor, will anyone want them?

A shame as the old Torq was something of a classic.

 

[stokepa31]

Gutted!!

I read a rather opinionated thread about 50 cycles which I think Flecc ended. I dont want to get into what is legally binding on a web page but I am somewhat annoyed that I paid £1245 for a bike and was misled as to its specificaton.

The bottom line is that as a retailer you should know your product. Ezee also have a responsibility in this so its a slap on the wrist all round.

I will comfort myself with the fact that I love my bike and get great pleasure riding it.

I guess the land speed record will have to wait for a while - now where did I put that nitro kit

 

[flecc]

I didn't end the thread you mention Stokepa31, I don't have the access or authority to do that. It was closed by the site administrator.

I understand you being upset about this, it's disappointing to say the least.

One consolation if you tackle any hills is the large gain on those. That was a big weakness with the old Torq, and it led to many selling their bikes again at quite a loss because they just weren't up to their needs in hilly areas due to the high geared motor and derailleur.

I think they'll all be restricted soon if the European law is fully enforced as expected.
.

 

[coops]

I wonder if the UK Torq2s can be fitted with the same motor eZee sell in Canada then (which seems to do similar speed to the original Torq motor), if the UK motors really are limited/geared to 15mph? They must have quite some torque if they are geared for 15mph maximum rather than limited, given the peak power is over 600W gross!

Stuart.

 

[stokepa31]

Sorry flecc my mistake.

I cant knock the bike to be honest, its a great piece of kit and i'm sure there was no intent to deceive. one of those things I guess

 

[flecc]

I don't think they are in view of the eZee reply Stuart.

It looks like they use the 250 watt stator/controller in our product and the 350 watt ones in the US/Canadian version.

That would make it the same as they do with the Sprint motor, 350 watt there, 250 watt here.

The Torq on that Quando motor is still huge when geared for legal speeds, as good or better than just about any other e-bike.
.

 

[stokepa31]

I notice the 50 cycles website is still displaying the bike is capable of 22ph when deresticted. They need to take that down or perhaps they now have the answer and have reinstated it!?!?!

 

[flecc]

i'm sure there was no intent to deceive. one of those things I guess

As you say, just one of those things, but I wish it didn't happen so often. These problems are common right through the e-bike field, and much of it is due to it being such a small industry.

They are a small fish in a big bicycle industry, probably well below one percent, so tail end charlies where supplies are concerned. Add to that the vagaries of Chinese production and standards, plus the variations that hand building brings, and you have a situation where the principals in the industry are fire-fighting the constant stream of problems rather than managing. eZee's principals spend much of their life flying to and from China to keep on top, and that's been the experience of the Wisperbike owners too.

There's a good side though. It makes me glad I'm retired.
.

 

[flecc]

I notice the 50 cycles website is still displaying the bike is capable of 22ph when deresticted. They need to take that down or perhaps they now have the answer and have reinstated it!?!?!

No, I'm sure there's no answer, as it seems the bike's motor is geared for legality and won't have a restrictor. You'll know that by what yours does.

If it runs to more than 15.5 mph when the battery is freshly charged, it's geared for legal speeds and doesn't have a restrictor. I'm almost sure this is the one.

If it cuts power at dead on 15.5 mph regardless of the battery charge state, it's likely it has a restrictor, though no connector to vary that now.
.

 

[HarryB]

Just to clarify things. Are we saying that the US/UK versions use the same motor but the controller determines the output either 350W or 250W? Or do they use different motors for different markets?

With regard to the 50 cycles page still showing it as being capable of 22mph -the problem is that they have two separate but similar webpages for the Torq (perhaps for the other ranges as well). This seems to have cropped up before - but must be difficult to keep both pages up to date.

 

[barneyd]

Ezee also have a responsibility in this so its a slap on the wrist all round.

That's what I thought - so I asked them. Here's the reply:

Dear Barny,

Yes, I have told them very clearly before the order is confirmed with specs and shipment we will just stick to the legal limits for 2 reasons
1) legal liability
2) the high speed is drawing very high amps and reduced battery life.

Best regards
Ching

I have to agree that the new Torq is an excellent climber but that's not the point here. Surely anything stated on a website has the same status as being in writing or even verbal when it comes to promises made during a sale.

 

[fishingpaul]

It seems to me 50 cycles, have been very slow to act on the new product info,the main selling point of the torq was top speed.in reply to concerns of legal speed, do you really think the police are going to start pointing speed cameras at electric bikes to check they are not doing 17mph,and then meassuring the road gradient, to make sure there was not a slight downhill gradient,which would allow extra speed,perhaps they will also stand in court, and state the rider was not pedalling at a fast enough cadence, to achieve the attained speed.it would surely bevery hard to make a conviction.

 

[flecc]

I think the main reason is Ching's number two, the high discharge causing a high incidence of cut-outs, in turn shortening battery life.

However, he may be preparing for the crackdown to Euro law only that we are expecting.

While it's true the police don't act at present, a new amendment or legal introduction could suddenly bring it to their attention and result in a bout of enforcement.

I haven't forgotten what happened when the seat belt law was introduced. After years of protesting that that had no-one to attend immediately to domestic burglaries and the like, they suddenly had four or five officers for every crossroads and traffic light junction across the whole of London, enforcing that very minor issue intensively for two to three weeks.

While a change in our bike law wouldn't produce as great a reaction, there's been no doubt for a long time that the police are a political force working for government, and no longer working for us. What the government wants, the police enforce. What we ask for is largely ignored.
.

 

[fishingpaul]

i still think it would be very hard to convict someone,if they were making a pedalling action, and had an offroad switch fitted,it would be easy to claim it was pedal pwer that took you over the limit,and how could otherwise(motor power in use at time of offence) be proven.

 

[frank9755]

I think the main reason is Ching's number two, the high discharge causing a high incidence of cut-outs, in turn shortening battery life.

I feel you are quite right. It took a long time for him to appreciate the failings of the Ezee lithium batteries but, to his credit, once he realised the issue was genuine, he appeared to take it very seriously, and took action.

The legal point may be an issue for the rider, possibly even the importer, but is not Mr Ching's problem. I think it was there to form a list!

 

[coops]

speed & battery limits

I wonder if the UK Torq2s can be fitted with the same motor eZee sell in Canada then (which seems to do similar speed to the original Torq motor), if the UK motors really are limited/geared to 15mph? They must have quite some torque if they are geared for 15mph maximum rather than limited, given the peak power is over 600W gross!

Stuart.

Sorry, badly worded - I meant for someone who wants the extra speed could Torq2s in the UK be fitted with the faster non-UK motor?

It seems still unclear though whether the UK motors are speed limited by a restrictor or gearing though. If someone with a UK Torq2 could confirm which, according to flecc's criterion given above, that would clear that up .

Surely hills & acceleration draw high amps, more than 20mph speed does, so does that mean the peak power output (hence hill climbing ability) of the motor has also been reduced to prevent reduced battery life? Otherwise I don't see the logic of reason 2, and I would be interested to know if the peak power output (& speed) of all eZee bikes are now to be reduced in line with the lithium battery's limited performance?

Its a great shame to limit the power(?) & performance of the bike because of the limitations of lithium batteries (although the lower speed/power output(?) of the Torq is now more in line with their capabilities, it would seem), when NiMH are up to the job & perform fine with the Torq as was. Isn't that putting the cart before the horse, or at least not putting your best horse for the job before your cart?

Stuart.

 

[frank9755]

Good metaphor, Stuart. I think they have repositioned it from a racehorse to a carthorse!

 

[flecc]

Surely hills & acceleration draw high amps, more than 20mph speed does, so does that mean the peak power output (hence hill climbing ability) of the motor has also been reduced to prevent reduced battery life? Otherwise I don't see the logic of reason 2, and I would be interested to know if the peak power output (& speed) of all eZee bikes are now to be reduced in line with the lithium battery's limited performance?

It's a speed of climb issue Stuart. At and below the maximum torque point of about 12 mph on the Torq 1, the current consumption is at the maximum.

By legally gearing the motor, that speed point becomes about 8 mph. As it takes much less power for the bike to climb a given hill at above 8 mph than above 12 mph, the chances of dropping into maximum consumption are greatly reduced.

It's the Quando motor of course, and in that bike it's legally geared too. It takes at least a 14% hill to drop the Quando to 9 mph when assisted with the lightest pedalling, illustrating what I mean. In fact nearly all my Quando/Q bike climbing is at 13/14 mph, often whether I'm pedalling or not, so consumption is about half maximum then.

By contrast, the Torq 1 could very quickly drop to 12 mph on lesser hills due to it's high motor gearing and poor torque, giving maximum consumption.

And of course, the cut-off point of the batteries has been adjusted now as well.
.

 

[tgame]

While a change in our bike law wouldn't produce as great a reaction, there's been no doubt for a long time that the police are a political force working for government, and no longer working for us. What the government wants, the police enforce. What we ask for is largely ignored.
.

Well said.

 

[coops]

I think they have repositioned it from a racehorse to a carthorse!

Thats a good metaphor too Frank!

It's a speed of climb issue Stuart. At and below the maximum torque point of about 12 mph on the Torq 1, the current consumption is at the maximum.

By legally gearing the motor, that speed point becomes about 8 mph. As it takes much less power for the bike to climb a given hill at above 8 mph than above 12 mph, the chances of dropping into maximum consumption are greatly reduced.

I see what you mean flecc, thanks, and that its less likely to hit peak power/current draw on the batteries in that 8mph case, whereas prolonged use of the higher speed motors on even moderate gradients will make a higher & longer demand for current, putting a high strain on the lithiums & reducing their life.

If the UK Torq2 motors are restricted rather than regeared though the reduction of battery strain will be reduced & it would perform similar to a restricted Torq, wouldn't it?

Further to my last post though, if the Torq draws high amps (current) which reduce battery life when derestricted for 'offroad' use, don't both the F-series which can be derestricted for similar top speed and draw higher current (20A vs 16A for Torq2) and the eZee kit sold in Canada which does 20-22mph, use the same battery? So I don't see why the Torq is apparently being singled out in this way, either with respect to legality or reduced battery life if the same reasons apply to all those bikes/kits?

Stuart.