NEC Cycle Show 2017: Wisper e-MTBs, Swytch & other highlights

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Jeremy knowing both Bosch and Shimano systems very well indeed, insisted we use the Shimano E8000 on our mountain bike range. As well as riding for Team GB many moons ago, Jeremy was also a top flight competition mountain biker. In his opinion the Q factor of 175mm and the possibility to utilise standard MTB length rear stays, coupled with the light weight and the ability to program the power via the Shimano app made the choice an obvious one. A bike equipped with the E8000 simply handles better than one fitted with the CX. Especially around the tight twists and turns associated with true off roading.

For road or trail use where such nimble riding isn't so important we will be using the cheaper Bosch motor. It's a good motor and makes sense.

All the best, David

KTM do have a Shimano drive on its way, we're just waiting for the battery issues to be sorted and then it'll be launched, so I do feel as though I can comment on this with impartiality... hopefully.

The comments about the Shimano drive are valid, but they should also be questioned.

The logic for this is something I've only recently come to appreciate.

I too have good experience of MTB (4th at National DH Champs, and top 25 elite at the MegAvalanche result on my CV just for the record ) and I have to say my initial thought was like Jeremy's ie to make an eMTB as like an MTB as possible.

However the more time I spend on eMTB, the more I realise, its not simply the case of strapping a motor to a good MTB to make a good eMTB.

I now feel that you don't want the chainstays as short as a regular MTB, and this is simply because of the power that comes from the motor. A longer back end makes the bike climb so much better (it doesn't loop out so much) and it does if the geometry is correct allow the bike to handle very well. The weight of the motor and battery keeps the bike grounded in the corners.

So the compromise is looking at where do you spend most of your time and what do you want from the bike. Personally I'm finding that a minor compromise in the cornering is worth it for the performance in stability and climbing on the rest of the ride.

eMTB is evolving, much like 29ers did. Initially people will try lots of things and then we'll work out the best thing, or indeed that there isn't a best thing and that different things suit different people. Which is I suspect what will happen. There won't be a "best" there will be different options.

I think there is a growing appreciation that this is an eMTB, and not just a MTB that has a motor on it. Do get the best out of it we need to look at it as a new product, not just a combination of 2.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Thanks Col,

It's great to get a considered response. Surely this is what the forum is about? We are all learning, especially me! None of us have the perfect eBike and none of us ever will. Thankfully "The best eBike" will always be a matter of taste. The eMTB is growing so rapidly in popularity there are bound to be discussions regarding what's good and what's not so good, long may the discussion continue.

Great to read that KTM are going with a range of Shimano E8000 bikes, it gives me even more confidence!

I've taken aboard what you say re the CX and the possible advantages of a longer wheel base, I will discuss with Jeremy. In truth I wanted to use the Bosch motor, but I am more interested in price points. Jeremy is the purist amongst the Wisper team!

All the best, David

 

[Steve A]

Hi Steve A, welcome to the thread, I noticed that you disagreed with my posts condemning riding illegal bikes in the UK and disliked Crocker's post on the same subject. Would you care to say why?

I see you also ride an illegal ebike. Do you understand that if you have an accident (god forbid) and hurt someone, you leave yourself wide open to prosecution? It could cost you points on your licence and a very hefty fine.

Many of us have worked very hard for many years to ensure that EPACs are treated in the same way as standard pedal bikes, there is a lot of resistance to the current state of affairs. By riding an illegal bike you are not only putting yourself at risk but are jeopardising what we in the industry have been working so hard to protect.

Assuming I ride with active dongle on public roads makes an ass out of you and me!. I'll leave it there.

 

[Steve A]

"FAO Administrators, great to have retailers / professionals advising, but NOT ADVERTISING!. This will be the downfall of a good forum."

Re: your comment to us Steve. Trade members of the forum pay a small monthly fee to support the forum which allows contact details on the sig, to suggest relevant bikes in the ‘Which e-bike should I buy’ category and also generally share their knowledge in other categories - the main thing we ask is ‘no hard sell’. (More in our t&c for anyone not sure.)

Our view is that if that a company’s products are being discussed then of course a trade member should be able to take part in that. What was being discussed here initially was the NEC event, at which Wisper were exhibiting.

Re: the rest of your post. Personal attacks aren’t constructive we agree. There will always be issues people disagree on and, generally speaking, we’re thankful that most members are respectful of others’ opinions and express differing views constructively.

Thanks for clarifying the forum business model, which I thought would be the case. I can also see you keep an good eye on what is said. It's a very tricky balance on accepting funds to assist forum vs being impartial.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Its amazing that after the lad killed the woman with his fixed wheel bike and got 2 years for it (he was lucky the law didnt allow more) you would think that sensible adults would want to ensure that their bicycles are as legal as possible.
Yet,on this forum,posters are stupid enough to tell the world that they are riding illegal bikes.
KudosDave

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Hi Dave, can you imagine if that accident had been caused by an electric bike with a dongle fitted. Whether it was turned on or not would make no difference to the police, judge or jury!

All the best, David

 

[Steve A]

Its amazing that after the lad killed the woman with his fixed wheel bike and got 2 years for it (he was lucky the law didnt allow more) you would think that sensible adults would want to ensure that their bicycles are as legal as possible.
Yet,on this forum,posters are stupid enough to tell the world that they are riding illegal bikes.
KudosDave

Innocent until proven guilty in this country, and how would they prove a dongle was used at the time with all the new tech.
I think you have to differential between a dongle being fitted, active and exceeding speed on public roads vs a dongle being fitted inactive and riding legally on public roads. In other words if a dongle is fitted on a bike but not active on a public road then it is a legal bike. If a dongle is activated on private land then it is a legal act if it exceeds 15.5mph.
As it stands and imho the law is "an ass" in this case. One, to restrict bikes to 15.5mph in UK, why not 17.5mph. I rode my carbon road bike (yes without assist) average 18mph. Many of my club friends in group rides averaged 22-25mph. On some flat, but many downhill stretches they would vastly exceed the speed limit, which in theory they could be prosecuted for. However, 2 of my friends who are police officers have neither the time or concern to worry about e-bikes. I think there more worried about people on e-bikes with mobile phones in hand

Pleased to see you guys are so busy selling bikes you have time to spend so much time on this forum during the day. I'd be more concerned about my sales and marketing strategy.

Enough said.

 

[Woosh]

I think you have to differential between a dongle being fitted, active and exceeding speed on public roads vs a dongle being fitted inactive and riding legally on public roads. In other words if a dongle is fitted on a bike but not active on a public road then it is a legal bike. If a dongle is activated on private land then it is a legal act if it exceeds 15.5mph.
As it stands and imho the law is "an ass" in this case. One, to restrict bikes to 15.5mph in UK, why not 17.5mph. I rode my carbon road bike (yes without assist) average 18mph. Many of my club friends in group rides averaged 22-25mph. On some flat, but many downhill stretches they would vastly exceed the speed limit, which in theory they could be prosecuted for. However, 2 of my friends who are police officers have neither the time or concern to worry about e-bikes. I think there more worried about people on e-bikes with mobile phones in hand

sorry, I have to disagree.
Nobody tries to stop you riding your e-bike at over 15.5mph, as long as you do so without the assistance of the motor. This point is fundamental in the concession that we all enjoy: not having to insure the bike and sharing the same privileged paths with pedestrians.
if you are capable of riding your unassisted bike at 18mph, then you can do just the same with the motor switched off. Why do you need a dongle?

 

[Steve A]

sorry, I have to disagree.
Nobody tries to stop you riding your e-bike at over 15.5mph, as long as you do so without the assistance of the motor. This point is fundamental in the concession that we all enjoy: not having to insure the bike and sharing the same privileged paths with pedestrians.

No need to apologise, but you have taken things too literally, OMG!.

Right I have work to do, bye.

 

[soundwave]

well the law states that any bike that has the ability to remove the speed limit or have a off road button or dongle it is illegal for use on uk roads.

but then again every bike with a kit fitted to it from china you can remove the speed limit anyway so that would mean 95% of all ebikes are not fit for uk roads.

i also dont think there is 1 kit on ebay you cant remove the speed limit so there you go.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

well the law states that any bike that has the ability to remove the speed limit or have a off road button or dongle it is illegal for use on uk roads.

but then again every bike with a kit fitted to it from china you can remove the speed limit anyway so that would mean 95% of all ebikes are not fit for uk roads.

i also dont think there is 1 kit on ebay you cant remove the speed limit so there you go.

All true... but "look other people are doing it" doesn't stack up as a defense if an old dear steps out in front of you. Just as the lad now in jail for riding a fixie (very common in every city) has proven.

 

[Woosh]

well the law states that any bike that has the ability to remove the speed limit or have a off road button or dongle it is illegal for use on uk roads.

but then again every bike with a kit fitted to it from china you can remove the speed limit anyway so that would mean 95% of all ebikes are not fit for uk roads.

i also dont think there is 1 kit on ebay you cant remove the speed limit so there you go.

sorry, I have to disagree with you, SW.
A lot of bikes are fitted with motors whose noload speed is less than 16mph. They are totally legal.
For the rest, derestricting the bikes is the illegal act. The person who does this knows the issue. You seem to say that because the manufacturers can't defeat the persons who break the law so the law does not apply to them or the law is broken anyway. That's similar to saying that because the lock can't protect your bike all the time, so the thieves don't break any law nicking your bike.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I agree entirely Steve, 15.5mph is too low a speed. In my capacity as Chairman of the old British Electric Bicycle Association, (BEBA), I had many meetings with the DfT regarding throttle usage and top speed. 15mph was deemed to be the speed that a reasonable cyclist could average. Our argument was that to average 15mph a cyclist would need to occasionally ride at speeds of just under 20mph, therefore 20mph was more sensible. Our point was well accepted, however as the European limit was 25km/h or 15.5mph the powers that be decided that must be the limit here too.

I am not sure that your argument that the dongle was inactive whilst riding on the public roads would help if you were being prosecuted, the fact that the bike is capable of being switched to "Off Road" would be enough. I used to fit a button to our bikes called the "Off Road" button. This button derestricted the bikes. It became very popular and many other brands followed suit. In the new regs there is a section on "Off Road" buttons outlawing them.

I should also mention that a de-resticted bike would be illegal to use anywhere the public have access, this includes footpaths and bridal ways, it even includes private fields or woods in which there are public rights of way.

All the best, David

 

[soundwave]

sorry, I have to disagree with you, SW.
A lot of bikes are fitted with motors whose noload speed is less than 16mph. They are totally legal.
For the rest, derestricting the bikes is the illegal act. The person who does this knows the issue. You seem to say that because the manufacturers can't defeat the persons who break the law so the law does not apply to them or the law is broken anyway. That's similar to saying that because the lock can't protect your bike all the time, so the thieves don't break any law nicking your bike.

Derestriction, ‘off-road’ switches or modes and dongles

The Department of Transport say that electric bikes fitted with off-road switches or modes, that enable a bike’s motor to continue assisting to speeds beyond 15.5mph, do not comply with UK EAPC law. The term ‘off-road’ suggests that these bikes can be ridden on parkland, forests or other places away from main roads, which isn’t accurate. E-bikes with increased motor power (continuous rated power above 250w) or increased speed (with motor assistance not cutting out at 15.5mph) cannot be used legally as bicycles anywhere on land accessible by the public; when riding on private land you would need permission from the landowner.

then the law is not on ur side then is it because if you can remove the speed limit the law is as above.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

well the law states that any bike that has the ability to remove the speed limit or have a off road button or dongle it is illegal for use on uk roads.

but then again every bike with a kit fitted to it from china you can remove the speed limit anyway so that would mean 95% of all ebikes are not fit for uk roads.

i also dont think there is 1 kit on ebay you cant remove the speed limit so there you go.

The same applies for practically every electric bike on the market Asian or European, including Shimano! Bikes should not be sold set to break the limits and certainly should not be ridden derestricted. We all need to be sensible or as I say we put ourselves in danger of losing this dispensation.

 

[soundwave]

they have hacked the software for the steps motor already you just pay for the licence key to remove the speed limit.

you need this tho and the software.
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shimano-di2-pce1-pc-interface-device/rp-prod85151?gs=1&utm_source=google&utm_term=&utm_campaign=Chain+Reaction-UK-PLA-PLA-All-DT-SE-Shopping+QLB+Product+Desktop&utm_medium=base&utm_content=mkwid|sCdA2vJP5_dc|pcrid|161850334074|pkw||pmt||prd|330081UK

 

[Steve A]

Back again, I must love being in the firing line.

I'm really not concerned about e-bikes / speed. Just look at how many idiots are on the road driving cars, with or without mobile in hand. Just the other day a school mum in new BMW X5 was doing near 70mph with kids in her car in a 40mph zone (not uncommon in home counties). As I indicated with hand to slow down in residential area shouldn't be surprised to get the finger in return, hence my comment about police have bigger fish to fry.

If you take things literally ref bikes, e-bikes, cars all as road users then surely cars should be restricted to 70mph, mine has been restricted to 155mph, clever restriction there then .

 

[Steve A]

they have hacked the software for the steps motor already you just pay for the licence key to remove the speed limit.

you need this tho and the software.
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shimano-di2-pce1-pc-interface-device/rp-prod85151?gs=1&utm_source=google&utm_term=&utm_campaign=Chain+Reaction-UK-PLA-PLA-All-DT-SE-Shopping+QLB+Product+Desktop&utm_medium=base&utm_content=mkwid|sCdA2vJP5_dc|pcrid|161850334074|pkw||pmt||prd|330081UK

Let's hope it doesn't overheat then

 

[Kudoscycles]

We have discussed this many times before,the term 'off road' is actually not precise enough. It should really state that the derestricted bike can only be used on private land with no public access...if you look on an OS map you will see that such land is almost impossible to find,even private ownership land is crisscrossed with public footpaths and bridleways...my old rallying days seeking stage mileage shows how difficult true private land can be found.
Post Brexit if we dont have access to EN15194 will we fall back onto old UK e-bike specs (200 watts!!!),just a thought???
KudosDave

 

[soundwave]

Let's hope it doesn't overheat then

ebike shop sell the steps motor but no dongle option yet so guess we will have to wait and see