More Seizures

[saneagle]

And it's this that is starting to concern me.
1 My trusty Ezee motor is unmarked.
2 On the stand it registers a maximum speed of 19mph without a cutoff (though this is with an uncalibrated cycle computer as it only has a led display).
3 It has a full acting throttle (only for hill starts guvner).

The bike and kit were bought in 2014 prior to the January 2016 law change. However the presumption now seems to be that if it's a kit bike it's illegal, as in the oft repeated phrase, 'An illegally modified e-bike'.

The wifes bike is a 2014 Big Bear. Whilst very firmly cutting off at 15.5mph it does have a full acting throttle and a large front hub.

The big bear should be fine with a KT.
Probably not going to be bothered around here but we do take them on holiday to various towns and cities.

I was going to suggest swapping out the controller for a KT one, but Ezee motors are a bit weird. I tried to replace an Ezee controller before. I tried a KT, which would only run it at the correct speed backwards. when I reversed the wires, it rotated like a turbine at 50 mph. Then I tried a KU63 that has auto configuration, which turned the motor perfectly, but backwards. Swapping the wires around didn't work because it always reconfigured itself to work backwards. That was 8 years ago. Maybe our understanding of how KT controllers work has improved a bit or the controllers have new features.

The advantage of the KT, apart from getting a better ride and more controllable power is the way you can set up the throttle to be legal with 4 mph no pedalling and 15.5 mph when pedalling.

There was a letter from some government minister or something, which indicated the grandfather rights for throttles. if you could get a copy of it, you could stick it inside your handlebar or somewhere like that for emergency use.

 

[lenny]

'Nuisance' e-bike riders prompt Huddersfield town centre crackdown

'Nuisance' e-bike riders prompt Huddersfield town centre crackdown

It follows public outcry over 'nuisance e-bikes and anti-social driving'

www.examinerlive.co.uk

 

[Sturmey]

'Nuisance' e-bike riders prompt Huddersfield town centre crackdown

'Nuisance' e-bike riders prompt Huddersfield town centre crackdown

It follows public outcry over 'nuisance e-bikes and anti-social driving'

www.examinerlive.co.uk

There is one interesting quote from the above newspaper article.

"Diallo had modified his pedal cycle with an after-market battery which made it a motor vehicle under road traffic laws."

I dont know whether the above is true or false in law but it does seem to be the case that untidy batteries and wiring attracts the attention of the police.

 

[saneagle]

There is one interesting quote from the above newspaper article.

I dont know whether the above is true or false in law but it does seem to be the case that untidy batteries and wiring attracts the attention of the police.

Under EN15194, 52v isn't allowed. Another argument could be that by going from 36v to 48v, the bike's speed increased by 30%, and it was 15.5 mph before. You have to understand that reporters generally don't know how things work. 14 years ago, 8f you asked me how I made my Cyclamatic slug go 33 mph, I'd have told you that it had a 48v battery.

 

[lenny]

There is one interesting quote from the above newspaper article.

I dont know whether the above is true or false in law but it does seem to be the case that untidy batteries and wiring attracts the attention of the police.

"A Deliveroo courier who modified his e-bike so that it was classed as a motorcycle killed another cyclist while riding it, a court heard."

"The court heard Diallo had fitted a motor to his bicycle that meant it was capable of reaching speeds of 32mph, although it had not been activated at the time of the collision because the battery was flat. "

Deliveroo rider killed cyclist in Leeds e-bike crash

Oury Amadou Diallo, 22, did not have licence for modified bike classed as motorcycle, court hears.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Sturmey]

I suspect that one reason behind the close attention to the legality of particular ebikes/pedelecs in the case of accidents is that, for example, If I as a pedestrian am seriously injured by a 16 year old (or someone with no money) riding on a 100% legal pedelec, I dont think I can claim compensation. However, I think that if I get an engineers report on the bike that states that the bike has been modified such that it is now a mechanical vehicle rather than a pedelec, I think this possibly open the door for me to make a claim for personal injury against the Motor Insurers' Bureau (MIB). There is money at stake?

 

[Ghost1951]

"A Deliveroo courier who modified his e-bike so that it was classed as a motorcycle killed another cyclist while riding it, a court heard."

"The court heard Diallo had fitted a motor to his bicycle that meant it was capable of reaching speeds of 32mph, although it had not been activated at the time of the collision because the battery was flat. "

Deliveroo rider killed cyclist in Leeds e-bike crash

Oury Amadou Diallo, 22, did not have licence for modified bike classed as motorcycle, court hears.

www.bbc.co.uk

That's an interesting case. The motor that was illegal, was not being used when the accident happened because the battery was flat.

If I bought an ancient RM1, Raleigh moped like the one I bought for £4 in 1966, and if I pedalled it home from the seller, because it had no petrol (which I did) was I driving a motor vehicle?

 

[Sturmey]

If I bought an ancient RM1, Raleigh moped like the one I bought for £4 in 1966, and if I pedalled it home from the seller, because it had no petrol (which I did) was I driving a motor vehicle?

I think once its on the public road, even parked. Read below for possible exceptions.

When you don’t need vehicle insurance

There are some situations where you don't need to have motor insurance. Read this page for information on circumstances where motor insurance isn't required.

www.citizensadvice.org.uk

 

[saneagle]

That's an interesting case. The motor that was illegal, was not being used when the accident happened because the battery was flat.

If I bought an ancient RM1, Raleigh moped like the one I bought for £4 in 1966, and if I pedalled it home from the seller, because it had no petrol (which I did) was I driving a motor vehicle?

Yes. If the vehicle is on the road or in a public space and meets the definition of a motor vehicle, it must have tax, MOT and insurance, even if it's parked. That's why they can seize parked cars that have no tax or MOT. Do you believe that the battery was completely flat, or do you think he might have disconnected the wires in the bag or wherever it was? I wish I were the policeman, then we'd have the answer.

 

[Ghost1951]

Yes. If the vehicle is on the road or in a public space and meets the definition of a motor vehicle, it must have tax, MOT and insurance, even if it's parked. That's why they can seize parked cars that have no tax or MOT. Do you believe that the battery was completely flat, or do you think he might have disconnected the wires in the bag or wherever it was? I wish I were the policeman, then we'd have the answer.

Yes - that's all correct - now, and well understood. When I bought my RM1 in 1966, and pedalled it home to fix up, I don't think the law was the same as it is now, but to be fair, I don't know that for a fact.

In this case of the accident referred to above, I suppose the contraption may well be a motor vehicle, but what if I remove the battery from my Specialised conversion with its BBs01 and simply pedal it around, which I can do perfectly well, though in much lower gears than when it has assistance. Is it a pedelec when I leave the battery at home and ride it under my own steam, or is it a bicycle?

EDIT:
Of course a pedelec is a bicycle anyway as far as classification is concerned.

 

[saneagle]

Yes - that's all correct - now, and well understood. When I bought my RM1 in 1966, and pedalled it home to fix up, I don't think the law was the same as it is now, but to be fair, I don't know that for a fact.

In this case of the accident referred to above, I suppose the contraption may well be a motor vehicle, but what if I remove the battery from my Specialised conversion with its BBs01 and simply pedal it around, which I can do perfectly well, though in much lower gears than when it has assistance. Is it a pedelec when I leave the battery at home and ride it under my own steam, or is it a bicycle?

EDIT:
Of course a pedelec is a bicycle anyway as far as classification is concerned.

In 1971, I bought an Ariel VB sidecar outfit with a broken magneto chain. I knew that sidecar outfits were difficult to drive, so I wanted to practice before I repaired it. My road was quite a steep hill that led on to another road that was a gentle hill. My mates came round to see my new acquisition, which was handy because the teamwork got the thing pushed up to the top of the road, then we all jumped on and free-wheeled it down for about 400 metres, and repeated. I worked in a factory that made polystyrene things, including crash helmet liners, so we were all wearing these white hat things too. There were about 5 or 6 of us altogether, cheering as we rolled down the hill. It wasn't long before one of the neighbours called the police, who came to investigate. They were quite good, but told me that it couldn't be on the road without tax and insurance, even though the motor didn't work, and they made us put it on my driveway. That's how I know the rule.

 

[Sturmey]

For those who are interested in case law, the legal precedent (quoted by police) governing the interpretation that an ebike that does not meet the requirements of an epac be treated as an offense of using the' vehicle with no insurance' can be read below.

Winter v DPP [2002] EWHC 1524 (Admin) (10 July 2002)

 

[saneagle]

For those who are interested in case law, the legal precedent (quoted by police) governing the interpretation that an ebike that does not meet the requirements of an epac be treated as an offense of using the' vehicle with no insurance' can be read below.

Winter v DPP [2002] EWHC 1524 (Admin) (10 July 2002)

That's an old one. Up until the last few years, that was the only case of somebody prosecuted for riding an illegal bike in the UK, but it was more a scooter than a bike. She was stopped by the police and told not to use it because it didn't have pedals, so she got someone to weld two bolts onto the tiny front wheel so that she could turn the wheel like one of those kids trikes, but she couldn't even get it up to walking pace. When the police saw her on it again, they prosecuted her, so she appealed, but the judge said that the pedals had to propel it at a safe speed to be a pedal cycle, and he dismissed her appeal. Also, the law has changed a bit since 2002 when EN15194 was adopted as the standard.

The main point is how he judged the case, which is what any judge would do. He simply went through the main points of the law as they stood at the time, which today would be: Is it an assisted pedal cycle that can be propelled by pedalling? Is the powered speed restricted to 15.5 mph? Does the motor only turn when you pedal? Is the motor rated at 250w or less? Is there a label detailing the manufacturer, the voltage and the motor's rated power?

 

[lenny]

Reading officials respond to e-bike chaos in the town centre
“Through Operation Pulse, we are both seizing vehicles that are being used illegally and educating the public on laws surrounding e-scooters and e-bikes – including working in partnership with schools and colleges to ensure students are aware of the laws.”

Police and council respond to e-bike 'chaos' in the town centre

Residents claim Reading is "overrun with the illegal vehicles" and feel something should be done about them.

www.readingchronicle.co.uk

 

[Sturmey]

That's an old one. Up until the last few years, that was the only case of somebody prosecuted for riding an illegal bike in the UK, but it was more a scooter than a bike. She was stopped by the police and told not to use it because it didn't have pedals, so she got someone to weld two bolts onto the tiny front wheel so that she could turn the wheel like one of those kids trikes, but she couldn't even get it up to walking pace. When the police saw her on it again, they prosecuted her, so she appealed, but the judge said that the pedals had to propel it at a safe speed to be a pedal cycle, and he dismissed her appeal. Also, the law has changed a bit since 2002 when EN15194 was adopted as the standard.

The main point is how he judged the case, which is what any judge would do. He simply went through the main points of the law as they stood at the time, which today would be: Is it an assisted pedal cycle that can be propelled by pedalling? Is the powered speed restricted to 15.5 mph? Does the motor only turn when you pedal? Is the motor rated at 250w or less? Is there a label detailing the manufacturer, the voltage and the motor's rated power?

Winter vs The DPP is the case that was judged and transcribed at the high court and it sets the precedent that gives the police the power to seize bikes and scooters as an uninsured vehicle. Other cases have not gone to the high court and are not transcribed or have not overturned this case. The technical details of what precisely constitutes a epac is a separate discussion and has being amended since 2002 but once the bike has been found not to comply with the epac requirements, whatever they are, it can treated as an uninsured vehicle because of this 2002 case.

E-scooters and policing

www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk

 

[Ghost1951]

In 1971, I bought an Ariel VB sidecar outfit with a broken magneto chain. I knew that sidecar outfits were difficult to drive, so I wanted to practice before I repaired it. My road was quite a steep hill that led on to another road that was a gentle hill. My mates came round to see my new acquisition, which was handy because the teamwork got the thing pushed up to the top of the road, then we all jumped on and free-wheeled it down for about 400 metres, and repeated. I worked in a factory that made polystyrene things, including crash helmet liners, so we were all wearing these white hat things too. There were about 5 or 6 of us altogether, cheering as we rolled down the hill. It wasn't long before one of the neighbours called the police, who came to investigate. They were quite good, but told me that it couldn't be on the road without tax and insurance, even though the motor didn't work, and they made us put it on my driveway. That's how I know the rule.

I might have told you before about my A10 BSA sidecar outfit. On the first drive, I almost had a bowel incident when I took a left turn enthusiastically and the side car wheel rose up about a foot off the ground. Somehow, pure instinct made me turn the bars to the right and it came down again, but I was several feet to the right of where I should have been on the carriageway.

You are not wrong when you say they were difficult to drive. I'm surprised they are still allowed on the roads - though you only rarely see one nowadays. They were very common when I was a lad.

Back in the day (1960s) the police were usually quite benign about minor violations - especially the bureaucratic ones. A mate of mine had a father who never taxed his moped because he said it was cheaper to pay the paltry fine on the rare occasion when he got stopped or couldn't get out of it by promising to get the tax right away when he got to a post office, than it was to mess about with the tax thing. It doesn't sound sensible to me, but that is what he did. I think he got fined once and it was a couple of quid.

 

[lenny]

Uninsured drivers owe millions to motor insurers’ group following crash compensation payouts
Judgments worth €2m secured by the Motor Insurers’ Bureau of Ireland since last year

Uninsured drivers owe millions to motor insurers’ group following crash compensation payouts

Uninsured drivers who were involved in dozens of accidents – some of them catastrophic – are still on the hook for millions of euro in costs related to the incidents.

www.independent.ie

 

[Ghost1951]

The law is a total mess in this area. There are different power levels quoted in the Winter case than are now supposed to be in force (200 watts under teh 1983 legislation and 15 miles an hour) but the 1983 regs were quoted).

In the e scooter legal advice quoted above , Bezant - Gahan says that police are supposed to warn riders of deviant scooters and not summarily confiscate them as un-insured vehicles.

How the public is supposed to know what to do is questionable and activist Chief Constables can do as they like. In Newcastle I see frankly outrageous riding and ridiculously over powered machines being ridden on pavements and in parks among pedestrians with no apparent enforcement against obviously egregious riding, while in other places, technically complaint bikes may be seized because they don't have a manufacturers label on them, but they meet the requirements in every other respect.

There are stacks of power compliant kits without the required label. My BBS01 doesn't have 250 watts stamped on it, but it does have a set of numbers engraved on it one of the set is '250'. I know it is a 250 watt continuous power motor and the speed is set at 25kph in the firmware and is not changeable without connecting it to a computer and changing the settings.

Some of the enforcement we now read about would regard any kit adapted bike as illegal because of labelling issues, but as I understand it (perhaps imperfectly) the labelling regulations refer to complete ebikes sold by businesses.

Are kit adapted bicycle now illegal? It looks like they can be and are being seized all the time, at Chief constable's discretion and usually in a publicity stunt on Twatter to make the police look like they are effective when in any other area than murder and GBH they are magnificently ineffective and unresponsive. Try reporting fraud, theft, shoplifting, burglary and a million other crimes - just don't you dare ride on a kit ebike without a label in Leicestershire and Norfolk, because if you do, some over zealous bast ard cop will snatch your ebike and if you have a driving license report you for about 12 points when you were riding on a road at 12 miles an hour in a sensible fashion.

I HATE TO SAY THIS, because i HATE him - but Vance is right. Europeans are pathetic. And THEY ARE NOT FREE. Not in ANY respect.

 

[Sparksandbangs]

The law is a total mess in this area. There are different power levels quoted in the Winter case than are now supposed to be in force (200 watts under teh 1983 legislation and 15 miles an hour) but the 1983 regs were quoted).

In the e scooter legal advice quoted above , Bezant - Gahan says that police are supposed to warn riders of deviant scooters and not summarily confiscate them as un-insured vehicles.

How the public is supposed to know what to do is questionable and activist Chief Constables can do as they like. In Newcastle I see frankly outrageous riding and ridiculously over powered machines being ridden on pavements and in parks among pedestrians with no apparent enforcement against obviously egregious riding, while in other places, technically complaint bikes may be seized because they don't have a manufacturers label on them, but they meet the requirements in every other respect.

There are stacks of power compliant kits without the required label. My BBS01 doesn't have 250 watts stamped on it, but it does have a set of numbers engraved on it one of the set is '250'. I know it is a 250 watt continuous power motor and the speed is set at 25kph in the firmware and is not changeable without connecting it to a computer and changing the settings.

Some of the enforcement we now read about would regard any kit adapted bike as illegal because of labelling issues, but as I understand it (perhaps imperfectly) the labelling regulations refer to complete ebikes sold by businesses.

Are kit adapted bicycle now illegal? It looks like they can be and are being seized all the time.

3x BAFANG 250w 48V/36v BBS02 BBS01 BBSHD Ebike Legal Silver Sticker Decal Motor | eBay

Make your Bafang mid-drive motor power follow the rules of local ebike traffic law. Fit for Bafang 350W/500W/750W/1000W mid motor. EBike Solution Team. If your motor does not identify this, one of these stickers can be used.

www.ebay.co.uk

Sorted for less than a fiver.

 

[nigelbb]

That's an interesting case. The motor that was illegal, was not being used when the accident happened because the battery was flat.

If I bought an ancient RM1, Raleigh moped like the one I bought for £4 in 1966, and if I pedalled it home from the seller, because it had no petrol (which I did) was I driving a motor vehicle?

Yes, you were driving a motor vehicle. It's exactly the same principle that if you are on the public road pushing a car with no fuel in the tank/battery it still needs tax, MOT, to be roadworthy etc