Meeting with Bosch

Hi Guys,

 

I know it's a bit late but I am meeting with Bosch tomorrow to do some training.

Is there anything anyone would like me to ask / find out?

 

Regards

Martin

Yes, find out how the communications with the battery works so that it can be re-celled and how a second battery can be wired in parallel.

Yes, find out how the communications with the battery works so that it can be re-celled and how a second battery can be wired in parallel.

 

Hi Dave,

 

I'll try and find out. But I do know that on the new battery's if you try to open the case at all (i.e to re-cell etc) the battery will never work again. I'll find out if this is the battery itself or just the case that breaks.

 

I guess it's a way of Bosch keeping their technology a secret within that plastic case.

 

Just before you go to open someone's up

Ill dig a little deeper tomorrow.

 

Regards

Martin

Hi Martin...

 

could you ask mr bosch as to whether the gearing is the reason for the big difference in 'feel' to the delivery of power between the 'old motor system, and the new small chain ring style set up?

 

...or has the motor a different torque curve?

 

..or whether different bike makers have different power set up requirements ??

 

 

thanks Barry

Hi

 

Not sure if Martin will have recieved this as training starts at 9am.

 

Merry Christmas

David

Yes, find out how the communications with the battery works so that it can be re-celled and how a second battery can be wired in parallel.

 

Hi Dave,

 

Yes as I mentioned yesterday I can confirm that the battery will never be able to be used again once dismantled. Also the BMS on board is so sophisticated in the communications it makes there is no possibility of running a piggy back pack.

 

Regards

Martin

Hi Martin...

 

could you ask mr bosch as to whether the gearing is the reason for the big difference in 'feel' to the delivery of power between the 'old motor system, and the new small chain ring style set up?

 

...or has the motor a different torque curve?

 

..or whether different bike makers have different power set up requirements ??

 

 

thanks Barry

 

Hi Barry,

 

The main reasons why they developed the new style motor was to give more ground clearance (doesnt matter on the inverted Haibike anyway), also using small cog makes it almost impossible for the chain to come off, they also wanted to incorporate a pedal back brake for the German market (which was not possible on the previous version).

 

All the Bosch motors are pre-programmed out of the Bosch factory to manufacturers for either derallier or hub gear.

 

The torque curves and power changes between the active and performance systems.

 

Regards

Martin

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All in all it was a good day, pretty much summed up most things I already new but was handy to look inside the new systems, see the internals to get a greater knowledge of how the system works.

 

I will do a more interesting write up with internal motor pictures on my blog when I get a chance tomorrow.

 

Regards

Martin

Edited December 19, 201312 yr by Martin@e-bikeshop

Nice to see a dealer paying some attention to after-sales.

 

Good job, Martin.

The training was very good had feedback from both my collegues who went. Good to know there were several different dealers there as well as some UK distributers!

The training was very good had feedback from both my collegues who went. Good to know there were several different dealers there as well as some UK distributers!

 

Yes was a good day all round, around 40 showed up, however I'm hoping lots of them were new to the game judging by some of the questions asked (that could be the distributors).

 

Interesting to see that out of everyone who showed e-bikeshop were the only ones to have full Bosch Diagnostics tools for all model years and have been competent in the use of it all for many months now.

 

Only downside to the day was when we adopted a slight German accent for the rest of the evening

 

Regards

Martin

Martin we have diagnostic kit for 2011/12 models as well as later versions though kept quiet as you are not technically supposed to have it before training .

Hi Guys,

 

Full report on my blog, even an opened battery images in there for d8ve

Here is a non SEO title, non link, to save you navigating through my website and blog to find it-

 

http://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/blog/post/e-bikeshop-visit-bosch-for-training-session-on-the-new-2014-ebike-system/

 

Sorry guys you'll have to copy and paste this one.

 

Regards

Martin

Here's the live link to Martin's Blog

Yes was a good day all round, ...

Only downside to the day was when we adopted a slight German accent for the rest of the evening

 

Regards

Martin

 

Ja. I hate it ven das happenz. Und ven I go tu France, Ay sim to beckum a leetle gallic, non?

Thanks Flecc ^^

 

Regards

Martin

Hello Martin,

 

I am currently in the process of re-celling my 8.8aH battery pack. It's a battery from a 2012 Scott e 29 bike so its the older type. So far, so good - the BMS has not permanently shut itself down despite being disconnected from all the cells.

 

I am getting a new bunch of 2.9aH 40 x Panasonic high drain cells built up in China. I have sent the factory the plastic matrix which the cells are held together with and they will be assembling it for a quoted price of £220. They will then post the cells back to me and I will solder on the power and sense wires from the BMS. That looks good considering that a new 11.6aH battery from Bosch costs over £500.

 

The battery case unscrews with a little bit of effort using a Torx bit (can't remember exact size).

 

I'll put a project post back up here once I have got it all up and running.

 

Interesting to hear that Bosch have made their BMS sacrificial on their new batteries! There must be a way of reactivating them. Usually they can be by jump starting them with an external power source. I am sure that the German e bike hackers have figured that one out by now....

I wonder why Bosch have made their batteries tamperproof.

I wonder why Bosch have made their batteries tamperproof.

 

Hmm I wonder -

 

1) Saftey. The Bosch battery is CE certified out of the factory, it is safe for users to use. The moment it is tampered with the CE certification is not valid.

 

2) Money. I'm sure Bosch are making a little on each battery, by making them tamper proof means that Bosch has full control.

 

3) Warranty. Bosch do offer a very good warranty on their batteries. If people are allowed to open up and tamper with them, this could cause a spate of warranty issues for the company which would not be valid.

 

4) Brand image. So you open the battery up, re-cell it. 3weeks later it spontaneously catches fire because it has not been re-celled in the correct format / conditions. A picture of the charred remains of the Bosch battery case ends up online, it gets a lot of attention because people are intrigued. The famous words appear in the caption 'I was just riding along'.. You get the gist..

 

5) SAFETY AGAIN - Batteries are very sensitive pieces of equipment, they can cause serious harm if damaged or mis-handled, any way to minimise this risk by Bosch is going to be strongly advised.

 

Regards

Martin

Edited December 22, 201312 yr by Martin@e-bikeshop

That was my immediate reaction too, for a company like Bosch, safety has to be paramount since any accident could do immense harm to their image.

 

Reputations are built over years and lost in seconds.

 

Ratners?

safety concerns and warranty are shared by all manufacturers but nobody else goes as far as rendering the battery unuseable or the motor refuses a replacement battery. Could this be interpreted as a restrictive practice? There was a parallel in the early history of IBM PCs with compatible BIOSes from Phoenix and AMI.

Could this be interpreted as a restrictive practice?

 

Given the well known and proven dangers of lithium batteries as witness the air transport bans, no court or government would support this interpretation. The right of a company to prevent any tampering or potentially risky use of alternative components would be upheld without question.

This case seems to have lots in common with the practice of using a chip to identify the toner cartridges in printers.

Article 85 of the Treaty of Rome forbids any arrangement that reduces competition without the customers getting a fair share of the benefits. In that sense, another manufacturer can possibly argue that the battery cannot be replaced by another (cheaper) unit with similar specification is a restrictive arrangement without demonstrable benefit to the customers. The software seems to prevent the use of a non-original battery.

Edited December 22, 201312 yr by trex

All true Trex, but the safety defence will always succeed in such a proven danger area.

 

It is after all in the consumers interests to a much greater degree than a cash saving. Furthermore, the defence has the addded argument that the consumer choice remains unaffected since they can buy e-bikes with very similar power units from other manufacturers, they are not restricted to Bosch in any way.

Given the well known and proven dangers of lithium batteries

 

Yes totally agree..

When I met with Bosch the battery precautions were taken very seriously indeed. In fact a large part of my training was based around battery safety and how to deal with certain situations. I am glad Bosch take this approach, with safety the being the focus point.

 

Trex do know a lithium cell of this size can heat up to over 1000degrees in a matter of minutes if it is damaged. I'm sure that will be the fastest anyone has ever ridden home with this between their legs!

 

On a side note Bosch were sure to point out some of the ridiculous conditions they had received batteries back from end users. The most common being 2 holes in the top of the battery case about 3inches apart damaging the cells within the case.. Can you guess what caused this?

 

Regards

Martin