Measuring your hill's percentage figure

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,262
30,649
To Pete (Sector)

I've done checks as indicated and the way in which Sanoodi fails is shown on the test on the following link. The remarks I've entered onsite below the map explain what I've done in this test.

Test Graph
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Sector

Pedelecer
Mar 5, 2007
102
0
Leicestershire Le8
Calorie counting

John,
My commute also goes downhill on the way to work and uphill on the way back. I like it that way. There is more incentive to pedal on the way home.

But how do you measure/estimate your calorie burn? I ought to take more interest in losing a few pounds.

Pete (Sector)
 

JohnInStockie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2006
1,048
1
Stockport, SK7
Hi Pete,

I was lucky and managed to get a cheap 'pulse monitor' watch for £6.99 when it was on special offer. Its not very sofisticated, it requires you to press 2 buttons when you stop such as at lights and things, and thereby it gets your pulse from your fingers. As when you get the watch you program in the time, date, your date of birth, height and weight, it can then calculate your training zones.

From that it can then calculate your calorie burn. :)

There are more on ebay, only cheap.

John
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,262
30,649
I've got to bottom of what is causing the Sanoodi gradient error over short distances, and it's what I call the "tail" effect. Here's the explanation. Have a look at the first image below and then refer to the text below that. The contour lines colour has been changed to black as the standard Sanoodi colour would not reproduce online from a copied image, probably deliberate:



You can see I've again put a row of evenly spaced markers on quite evenly spaced contour lines on a steep and even 1 in 3.6 slope. The gradient graph alongside shows a different picture, the slope between each pair of markers being shown as anything from fractionally uphill to a sheer downhill drop, clearly very wrong.

The reason is quite simple. The line between each pair of markers crosses only one contour line so Sanoodi cannot judge the gradient from that. The loose "tail" at the side of the line reports randomly therefore and can give almost any result. Since the next section has to start at the correct point relating to the overall slope, the error on the first part of the line has to be compensated on the second part, so that second part is forced into an inaccurate slope to compensate. After that the slopes between markers are roughly correct until the final "tail" which can go haywire as the graph above shows.

Sanoodi's algorithm cannot ignore sections which cross only one contour line, since if it did that it would often be unable to report in fairly flat territory. However, Sanoodi's creators have put in one error correction to minimise the problem. When a section is overall downhill, any individual error is not allowed to report completely the opposite way, any opposite trend being held to about 5% maximum, and you can see that at the point in the elevation graph above where a line section tries to go uphill but is restricted.

Over distance there's no problem. Any error across a contour line is restricted to the 10 metre elevation between two contour lines. Therefore it's a serious error if the distance across the ground is short, such as 20 metres, since it could report that as roughly flat or a 50% sheer slope. If one contour is crossed, again with the same possible error, but the line is 400 meters across the ground, the error can be reported as roughly flat again or only a 2.5% slope, a tiny variation which is scarcely noticeable.

Now have a look at the next image below and refer to it's text:



Here I've thinned out the markers, and you'll see that between each pair the line crosses two 10 metre contour sections. Therefore there's one loose "tail" to each graph line section giving an error from flat to 10 metres change averaged against two correct 10 metre sections. This gives the graph shown, in which the errors of the two slope lines are greatly reduced.

Finally now the third image below and it's text:



Here there's only two markers giving one line on the graph, so we now have two "tail" errors on the line. However, the line crosses five ten metre elevation sections, so the maximum imposed error can only be 1 part in 5 and on average will be half that, a barely noticeable deviation. As can be seen and calculated, the slope is being reported on the graph as roughly correct, as it was overall on all three graphs.

So in conclusion, a line between any two markers on Sanoodi needs length (distance), or if short, it needs to cross as many contour lines as possible between any pair of markers if results are to be accurate.
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Sector

Pedelecer
Mar 5, 2007
102
0
Leicestershire Le8
Good work Flecc, and it all boils down to a simple conclusion, which I repeat below for emphasis.

Flecc's Rule
"A line between any two markers on Sanoodi needs length (distance), or if short, it needs to cross as many contour lines as possible between any pair of markers if results are to be accurate."
 

coops

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 18, 2007
1,225
1
Manchester U.K.
re calorie counting

Thanks for the Sanoodi tips flecc.

Hi Pete (Sector),

Thats useful to be able to cycle downhill into work & uphill back :).

Sector said:
But how do you measure/estimate your calorie burn? I ought to take more interest in losing a few pounds.
I did some quick sums, and as a rough guide, pedalling with around 50W of power - thats equivalent to pedalling at about 10mph, say, on a fairly level road and a reasonably energy efficient bike - consumes about 175 calories or so per hour. 75W, or 12-13mph or so unassisted pedalling "effort", burns about 260 calories per hour.

In terms of weight loss, expending 500 calories more per day than you take in leads to around 1lb/0.5kg or so weight loss per week: 1g body fat is about 7calories, apparently (a bit less than "pure" fat at 9 calories/g due to other components present).

To lose more/less weight just increase/decrease excess calorie expenditure in proportion :).

Uphills on electric bikes, if you pedal with the same effort as on the flat, burns the same calories :).

Stuart.
 

seniorsnood

Just Joined
Feb 25, 2008
2
0
Elevation data

Thank you for raising this issue.

These were our initial thoughts:

a) the quality of the data set we use.
b) an arithmetic error that is really hard to detect in mr jones's algorithm.

First point is that the elevation profile is not derived from the contours that are displayed!
Second we have run through the code that calculates this and it is correct.

However we already know that the elevation dataset that we use does contain some errors. We have seen this on routes that we have done in various places in the UK.

In addition and probably the most important aspect of the problem that you have identified is that the elevation profile is dependent on the number and position of the waypoints.

We are looking at implementing a new elevation dataset for the new Sanoodi site due in the next couple of weeks. Will be meeting up with a Global GIS guru in March to get more information on what they regard as the best one. As soon as we have done this we will let you all know.

Thanks again

Paul
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,262
30,649
Many thanks for the clarification Paul. As you've seen, I made my assumption based on the way my reading fitted the circumstances so well. At least the suggested advice for use was correct. :D

I look forward to your further news and any resulting upgrade.

Thanks again for keeping us informed.
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