Measuring your hill's percentage figure

[flecc]

Thanks Miles, £95 eh! Ouch, my guess was right, too much for the handlebars!

 

[Miles]

But it's got lots of buttons.... http://www.leveldevelopments.com/PDF_Documents/SmartTool-Module.pdf

It would be nice to have one with a readout on the top or end surface...

 

[flecc]

Certainly has! I still like the cheap one, but on that I had the similar thought that perhaps it could be re-boxed with an edge display. Depends on whether the display is integrated with the circuit board or wired. Usually the former these days unfortunately.
.

 

[pgbw]

Real percentages?

Please excuse very late post - I'm new here.
I think that the way precentages are described by flecc are what you'd expect from trigonomtery (and, indeed, the OS site tells you this way too). However, when I was taught this at school, we were told that it isn't the way real surveyors do it. They roll their wheel along the road between two points with known heights, so that they measure the length of the hypotenuse, not the horizontal.
There's not a lot of difference on small inclines, but it's much a easier way to measure.
Of course, the school teacher may have been worng, practice may have changed, and may differ between countries (or even surveying organisations).
Now... does anyone really know? Any road engineers out there?

 

[Miles]

If anyone is interested in importing:

Inclinometer, Inclinometer Manufacturer, China Inclinometer products to sell

 

[flecc]

Welcome to the forum pgbw, and please post whenever you like, always appreciated.

You're right about professional measurement of course, and so was your teacher, but with so many cyclists having no way of measuring gradients and sometimes not understanding properly, my method was an easy way of enabling them to measure accurately enough. The difference from the hypotenuse is probably within a half percent in our sort of gradients. Much better than some of the wildly inaccurate guesses we sometimes saw!

There was also the advantage of quite probably already having the necessary rule, level and piece of straight material to hand, and no cost is always welcome. My measuring "stick" is a 50 cm strip of right angle alloy, very easy to attach to a carrier, plenty good enough for this purpose.
.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

I've always wondered........

Please excuse very late post - I'm new here.
I think that the way precentages are described by flecc are what you'd expect from trigonomtery (and, indeed, the OS site tells you this way too). However, when I was taught this at school, we were told that it isn't the way real surveyors do it. They roll their wheel along the road between two points with known heights, so that they measure the length of the hypotenuse, not the horizontal.
There's not a lot of difference on small inclines, but it's much a easier way to measure.
Of course, the school teacher may have been worng, practice may have changed, and may differ between countries (or even surveying organisations).
Now... does anyone really know? Any road engineers out there?

I've always wondered but was too to ask: Does an O/S map going up the contours show distance by scaling off the length of the slope or the length of the horizontal?
I had always hoped, when having plenty of time to consider both, pedalling up grinding climbs, that it was the slope (hypotenuse) that was represented on the map. A daft question, I know, but by how much does this affect the measurement of the circumference of the earth at, say, the equator?
So are we doing it all wrong with the Stick, Tape and Bubble?
Are not the 'measurements' taken only a way to calculate the difference between level (the bubble) and the gradient (the rise of the 'stick' above 'level') expressed as a percentage? I can see that the 'stick' is foreshortened by lifting one end and this corrupts the precise calculation.
My legs couldn't care less: they don't say (when they are speaking to me on hills, which cannot be repeated here, the Administrator has banned it) "oh it's OK, it's not as steep as it seems" Or are my legs misguided? Is it in fact steeper?
Peter

 

[flecc]

Yes, as I posted Peter, the hypotenuse is the correct one, but with most of the hills we measure in the 7 to 12% range the error isn't worth bothering with, it only rising to more serious proportions with the steepest like 20%.

It's easy for purists to apply a mathematical correction afterwards if they wish, but naturally my suggestion wasn't meant for those who already knew what was necessary and could look after themselves.
.

 

[pgbw]

The OS map always shows the horizontal distance. So, for what it's worth, will your GPS system. The hypotenuse ("along the road surface") is longer, so you slug further up the hill than the map shows. If you have a cycle computer, it will show you the hypotenuse distance.
But, I think, the arrows to show steep hills are placed because the hypotenuse measured gradient falls in the relevant ranges.

 

[flecc]

To give some idea of the size of the error using "stick and rule", a 12% will actually be an 11.91457%, a 7% will actually be 6.98291%, so you can see why I don't think the difference is worth bothering with.

Even a 20% will only vary slightly, the correct gradient being 19.611688%.

Not relevant for us I think.
,

 

[Sector]

www.sanoodi.com

If you are interested in gradients there is a website called Sanoodi that will tell you how far you climbed during a ride. You need to register, but its free. You enter your route as a series of dots on the map, and it even seems to work off-road. Various information is then calculated for the route, including distance, difference in elevation between start and finish, and total climbed.

The idea is that you leave the route visible to other users of the site, but that is not essential. Most of my rides hardly qualify to be recorded for posterity, eg to work and back.

Have fun.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Great.

If you are interested in gradients there is a website called Sanoodi that will tell you how far you climbed during a ride. You need to register, but its free. You enter your route as a series of dots on the map, and it even seems to work off-road. Various information is then calculated for the route, including distance, difference in elevation between start and finish, and total climbed.

The idea is that you leave the route visible to other users of the site, but that is not essential. Most of my rides hardly qualify to be recorded for posterity, eg to work and back.

Have fun.

Thank you Sector for sharing that with us. A bit tedious putting in all the markers (never satisfied, are we) but it's better than riding the hill(s).
Peter

 

[Sector]

My steepest hill

Pete,
It seems to work for quite short distances. Here is the steepest hill I've ridden up on the Quando.

Sanoodi

Usually I walk the bike up the hill because I prefer to save battery power, but as a test I used full throttle and didn't peddle. It went up at around 6.5 mph. (That was with an 85 kg rider, 10kg of luggage, 25 kg of Quando, about 3 miles from freshly charged LiIon battery, about 10 degC ambient temperature. A crude calculation, using some figures I found on this forum for the Quando power, suggests that the motor was working at aroumnd 85% efficiency.)

I've measured the slope of the steepest part with the protractor and spirit level of my combination square, and calculated it as 14%.

The Sanoodi route for 224ft of the hill gives a rise of 29.5 ft, which is 13%.

Since I natually chose the steepest part to measure with my protractor and spirit level the Sanoodi figures seem almost too good.

I'd be interested to know if others find the same degree of accuracy for short lenghts of steep hill in Sanoodi.

I'm Pete as well by the way.

Regards
Pete

 

[flecc]

Hello Pete, that's dead on for the Quando's limit of capability, found by both A to B magazine and myself as well, 13%. It's an extraordinary hill climber, the best there is amongst full speed UK legal e-bikes, and about the best for towing as well. That's why I had no hesitation in using it as the basis for my universal use Q bike.

Thanks for the link, very useful.
.

 

[Sector]

Quando

Flecc,
It was largely because of your comments here and on your website that I chose the Quando. Having used it for 3 months I'm still very happy with the choice. Thanks. I can vouch for the accuracy of your comments on the bike.

The only problem I've had is one broken spoke in the back wheel. 50cycles supplied spares and I was soon on back on the road again. I'm hoping it was a faulty spoke. rather than an indicator of more broken spokes to come.

Pete/Sector

 

[flecc]

I'm sure it was just a faulty one Pete, the Quando doesn't usually have spoke trouble.

Here's what the Q bike conversion of the Quando makes very easy to cycle up, 22%: Sanoodi

It's the hill climb trials location for a couple of top cycle clubs.
.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Sanoodi

Pete,
It seems to work for quite short distances. Here is the steepest hill I've ridden up on the Quando.

Sanoodi

Usually I walk the bike up the hill because I prefer to save battery power, but as a test I used full throttle and didn't peddle. It went up at around 6.5 mph. (That was with an 85 kg rider, 10kg of luggage, 25 kg of Quando, about 3 miles from freshly charged LiIon battery, about 10 degC ambient temperature. A crude calculation, using some figures I found on this forum for the Quando power, suggests that the motor was working at aroumnd 85% efficiency.)

I've measured the slope of the steepest part with the protractor and spirit level of my combination square, and calculated it as 14%.

The Sanoodi route for 224ft of the hill gives a rise of 29.5 ft, which is 13%.

Since I natually chose the steepest part to measure with my protractor and spirit level the Sanoodi figures seem almost too good.

I'd be interested to know if others find the same degree of accuracy for short lenghts of steep hill in Sanoodi.

I'm Pete as well by the way.

Regards
Pete

Hello Peter Sector:
Thanks for your input and for the introduction to Sanoodi.
I agree with your calculations.
The Summary told us the exact rise in feet but did not translate (as far as I could see) the linear measurement into digital - I had to 'guess' the distance by, well, guesstimation from the graph. Not easy with a point in 'midair'.
I was surprised that its the steepest hill you have ridden on the Quando.
If you have time (I am hopeless at locating past postings on the Forum) you could check out what Flecc has published on the Hill Climbing abilities of his Quando - Trailer and all.
You do not mention your fitness or health level - but 85 kgs is 17 lbs lighter than me. I have great Cardio problems (that's why I went electric) and in consequence have little useful fitness (about 50/75 watts flat out). I have a Sprint 7 and my local hill (yet to be 'Sanoodied') is 9% - 10%, 750 metres long and I can get up that on my 39 inch bottom gear, full throttle at 10 mph. Dare I try it without pedalling?
I think this calls for more 'science'. I will practice navigation on the Sanoodi site and perfect (?) the technique and post the results on the site and send you a link.
Don't wait up!
Thanks for your trouble.
Peter.
PS Ah! When it comes to placing the markers it is necessary to 'follow the road'. Any deviation off-road will spoil the result (a matter of unknowns). This makes plotting rather tedious if the road is windy (never mind hairpins).Still, in the interest of knowledge, one must 'grasp the nettle'.

 

[flecc]

Pete's 13% was without pedalling though, my trailer towing up 14% was with pedalling Peter. His 13% is accurate without pedalling as I've posted above.

I've posted above what's easily possible with pedalling if it had gears, 22%.
.

 

[Sector]

Quando

Flecc,
It was largely because of your comments here and on your website that I chose the Quando. Having used it for 3 months I'm still very happy with the choice. Thanks. I can vouch for the accuracy of your comments on the bike.

The only problem I've had is one broken spoke in the back wheel. 50cycles supplied spares and I was soon on back on the road again. I'm hoping it was a faulty spoke. rather than an indicator of more broken spokes to come.

Pete/Sector

 

[Sector]

Better scenery for a steep hill

Flecc
I like the look of your hill set in wooded countryside. In defence of mine, the aerial photo seems to be a few years old, and they have now cleaned the area up a lot. Now it is quite a pleasent route over the canal bridge and up the slope.

The photos on Sanoodi seem to be the same as on Google Maps. I believe Google Maps have elevation data built-in, but the data is not normally revealed.

Pete