Magic Pie kits and Alien Ocean

[NeilP]

They come up on ebay now and again. but from what you say I just think you will be very disappointed with the additional weight of an ebike...best to try or hire one first to get an idea

Well yes, I have seen the standard slow e-bikes that people ride around here, and definitely do not want one of those, they are just too slow, so that is why I was asking about the Magic Pie kit.


So yes, jbond... My first thought was for the Magic Pie kit...it is the first type I had seen, I had not read real bad stuff about them, all I had seen on here was that some one saying they were 'old technology'...so to my mind that implied that there was newer better stuff around.

The rack thing is not an issue...I can always build a new holder to go between the tubes for the battery...water bottle style...I do a bit of welding/fabrication. steel/ally etc,so that is not an issue.

 

[eddieo]

there are better established kits at a price, from the likes of BionX and Ezee. Wisper have an interesting kit coming soon as well

but Alien kit would do the job as well

 

[Andrew]

Hi Neil,
I'm new to this forum and have just bought a Magic Pie kit from China and got it for £150 cheaper than off Alien Ocean and that includes shipping and custom charges from the shipper. However, GM's quality control is notoriously bad. My kit actually arrived with a rip in the rim. Luckily i contacted a company in Liverpool who use GM's bits for E-wheel chairs and they sent me a replacement rim and they claimed a replacement from China themseleves which was very good of them. Although i had to pay someone to resspoke the new rim.

In retrospect, would i have upfronted the extra £150 to get a UK warranty...... Yes probably. It has been stressful tracking the parcel from China, communication with China is very very limited. It very unnerving when a 3" rip in the rim has not been spotted during manufacture. it makes you wonder how well put together the rest of the kit is.

If you want speed i suggest you go for their 1000w 901 pro kit as ths will be faster, quieter, lighter, smaller and more discrete than the huge magic pie. The magic pie is designed to have more torque for getting up hills easier and to pull heavier loads so it could be a good choice if you are on the heavier side.
You will add about 13kg's to a bike with a magic pie kit if you choose the 48v 12ah battery. most people report about 23mph on a pie on the flat with no pedalling. Th controller that comes with the kit is meant to be a 50amp max current, but it seems it has a safety limit on it to more like 20A max.
you get a USBcable that fits to the controller and you can get software free from the GM website which allows you to change the current and the voltage. But as the controller is limited so low changing them will make little difference. most people report changing the voltage from 48 down to 24v will give a bit more speed and torque, but again you'd have to make sure the motor is not getting hot.

I'm still in the final stages of setting up the pie so have not tested it yet. But even before riding it i'm wishing i'd bought the 1000w 901 pro kit instead, as it's quieterand has a more discrete smaller motor. i also went for the internal controller on the pie but this has now limited me to making future changes. So i also wish i went for the external. the one benefit to the pie kit and internal controller is it can be set up really neatly. I have all the wires bunched together going across the top bar , so apart from the pie motor itself the bike still looks neat and discrete as it did before the conversion.

Neil, if you reply to this thread for more info i will try and put up some photos next week and also give you some first impressions of the pie.


Andrew

P.S Hi my names Andrew i'm in the UK, I'm new to the forum

 

[NeilP]

Yes, please, any pics or more info greatfully received

Cheers

Neil

 

[jbond]

Yes, so that is why I am asking about the Magic Pie Kits with claims of 25 to 30 mph...that is what I am after...something quicker than my currant pedal power speed......an electric kit that only gives 15 mph is ...well words fail me here.....pointless...if all it can do is 15 mph..you may as well just pedal.

I think you should take a look at this.
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/7077-i-took-fleccs-advise-created-monster.html

Like it or not, 15mph is the legal assisted limit. So inevitably most of the market produces kits and bikes that cut power at that speed. Geared hubs tend to be designed to match so the point where they start to freewheel and no longer provide assist is typically in the 15-20mph range at their design voltage. To get more than that you have to start playing games. eg
- Take a motor geared for 15mph in 20" and lace to a 26-700c rim
- Run a 36V motor at 48V
- Step outside EU legality completely with a direct drive hub like a crystalite

Or just accept the downsides of weight and a very slight bit of extra drag for the ability to ignore hills at less than 15mph. In other words, get just enough assist to take the sting out of the hills but ride on pure pedal power elsewhere.

 

[NeilP]

Thankfully I am not in the UK...or in the EU...and I do not believe we have anything covering electric bikes yet..at least not what I have been able to find out.

My regular average speed on my MTB varies 15-18 mph on the Garmin cycle computer anyway... so a 15 mph helper is a bit of a waste of time really. Carrying all that extra weight around for a few hills is a bit pointless, I reckon it would only slow my average speed down, I would expect.

They can make electric motorbikes (Zero Bikes) that can do up to claimed 67 mph..so a reasonable 30 mph bicycle kit should not be out of the question..

willl search for these crystalite units you mention. Thanks

 

[jbond]

Look on Endless-sphere.com • View forum - E-Bike General Discussion There are lots of people there building crazy powerful electric bikes.

But note, your average speed may be >15, but what's your average on hills?

I'm OK with people being a little bit illegal in the UK. I really don't see the problem with bikes that do 20 assisted or even 30 assisted while going down long steep hills. But being able to do 40 on the flat while still claiming to be a bicycle feels like bad news for all of us. I absolutely do not want any additional attention from the forces of awe and boredom.

 

[magickmike]

Look on Endless-sphere.com • View forum - E-Bike General Discussion There are lots of people there building crazy powerful electric bikes.

But note, your average speed may be >15, but what's your average on hills?

I'm OK with people being a little bit illegal in the UK. I really don't see the problem with bikes that do 20 assisted or even 30 assisted while going down long steep hills. But being able to do 40 on the flat while still claiming to be a bicycle feels like bad news for all of us. I absolutely do not want any additional attention from the forces of awe and boredom.

I built a bike that might interest. It is a 36v Bafang 350w climber motor (code 14) in a 700c wheel with a 500w controller and thumb throttle and pedal sensor. The battery is a 48v 10ah lifepo4 from Vpower. It does 22mph on the throttle and assists up tp 18.5 mph using the pedal sensor. It is slightly Uk illegal but I live in a very hilly area and needed the extra torque. All the parts came from BMS battery and although the shipping time is longer than they quote, I have always recieved the correct items and they have been well packaged.

 

[jbond]

I built a bike that might interest. It is a 36v Bafang 350w climber motor (code 14) in a 700c wheel with a 500w controller and thumb throttle and pedal sensor. The battery is a 48v 10ah lifepo4 from Vpower. It does 22mph on the throttle and assists up tp 18.5 mph using the pedal sensor. It is slightly Uk illegal but I live in a very hilly area and needed the extra torque.

That doesn't sound a whole lot different from the Aurora. That's a code 13 BPM motor in a 26" rim with a 36V10AHr battery. I can't quite remember, but I think the codes are for smaller (9=20") wheels through larger (14=700c).

 

[magickmike]

That doesn't sound a whole lot different from the Aurora. That's a code 13 BPM motor in a 26" rim with a 36V10AHr battery. I can't quite remember, but I think the codes are for smaller (9=20") wheels through larger (14=700c).

I agree it is similar to the Aurora, but as I had no knowledge of that bike. It must be a case of great minds (or fools). My build including the Giant expression 23" frame (I am very tall) that I built it on was significantly cheaper than the Aurora. the total cost was just under £650.

 

[Andrew]

willl search for these crystalite units you mention. Thanks

Neil, if you want quick this is probably the motor you want.... Nine Continent NC26RD_Fast look for it on this page... The Grin Cyclery


A 35amp controller would give the best results along with a 48v battery

 

[NeilP]

Now they look good.

I wonder what the wattage is on those NC motors is? I cant immediately see it on the site. I was originally thinking of the big 1.2kW Magic Pie kit...but there are soo many options and ideas kicking around one could spend a lot of money just buying stuff to play with...so lots of research required yet.

Cheers for that link really great

 

[jbond]

I agree it is similar to the Aurora, but as I had no knowledge of that bike. It must be a case of great minds (or fools). My build including the Giant expression 23" frame (I am very tall) that I built it on was significantly cheaper than the Aurora. the total cost was just under £650.

I'm posting from memory again and getting it wrong.
Endless-sphere.com • View topic - Bafang BPM Pics and Specs - Large 3.9Kg Sensorless Geared
The Aurora is a code 11 (I think). At least the case markings say "BPM 36v350w 26(11)"
The specs in that link show no-load rpms for 36v
10 = 315rpm
11 = 285rpm
15 = 206rpm
16 = 192rpm
So you're 14 at 48 seems about the same top speed as my 11 at 36v

 

[Andrew]

Now they look good.

I wonder what the wattage is on those NC motors is? I cant immediately see it on the site. I was originally thinking of the big 1.2kW Magic Pie kit...but there are soo many options and ideas kicking around one could spend a lot of money just buying stuff to play with...so lots of research required yet.

Cheers for that link really great

The PIE is acyually 1000w not 1200 as advertised on Alien Ocean. But even so due to the current safety limit on the controller it's more like 800 - or so i'm led to believe, but i have not tested it and this is just hear say

 

[Andrew]

OK Neil, as promised some pictures,,,, and a detailed review to boot........

click the link: Magic Pie versus Complete Novice (A Long Winded U.K Review)Sexy photos inside!!

 

[NeilP]

Well guys, thanks for all your help, and the tip about the Endless sphere forums.

Looks like I have managed to make a decision on what I am going to build...but ordering the parts is becoming a bit of a challenge.

Have decided on a Crystalyte 5304 motor which is not a high speed motor, but good for torque. It is their mid range motor between torque and speed.

I have gone for a modified 18 FET controller with USB programming, so I can 'turn it down'a bit and tinker with the settings
I am going to ad one of these Cycle Analyst computers to give me an idea of what is happening.
To power the whole lot, I am taking a risk and going with LiPo batteries. RC style Turginy Nano Tech batteries from Hobby King. Have ordered 8 cells that weigh about 20lbs
This will give me 20Ah at 72 volt or variations on that if I use different pack configurations.

I'll let you all know how the build goes, when and if I manage to order the parts

Neil

 

[NRG]

How are you going to manage the LVC, charging and balancing for the Lipo cells?

 

[NeilP]

LVC...very basic overall with the CA, not at cell level...yet.
BMS the same, keeping discharges down to 75 or 80% ..at least initially.

Advertising say....nano tech cells are better..down to 90% discharge..but that is advertising/sales tlk....so who knows
A mate of mine does a lot of heli flying and having talked with him and other club embers, and the general opinion is, once a pack has had a few initial cycles and cells are balanced, they tend to stay that way. There are exceptions of course.
So, OK, not ideal, but can't afford everything at once and yes it would be nice to have it all on board, but it is all extra weight and clutter on the bike.

Balancing with a 10s balance charger...forget the name now.
I could parallel the two series packs up for charging. working on this.
Power supply...again various options...either a homebuild...I have a nice fat torroidial transformer somewhere, that I think can be forced into service..otherwise the old standby of truck lead acid batteries


Still trying to get the motor, must people are out of stock...Xlyte Europe, and others....know of any one in UK that may have one?

Rear...26 inch for rim brakes, with disc brake cover plate for future upgrade?

Neil

 

[NRG]

Can't help with the motor, sorry.

I would strongly advise you implement cell level LVC at the outset. Yes, these cells do keep good balance but you only need one to become 'lazy', drop lower than the others past the safe limit and then upon recharge it lets go and takes the the rest of the pack with it and possibly your house. No joke. On ES there are some pictures of what's left of a bike after going up in flames. Tppacks.com sell neat LVC boards that you wire into the brake cutout line to protect the cells or buy some of the cell monitors off Hobby King like the BM6 modules that give an audible alarm. If funds are tight, drop the CA and get the cell LVC sorted first. A Watts Up meter is a cheap alternative to the CA for basic monitoring.....

For charging try to work out a scheme where you don't need to reconfigure the pack each time for charging. It minimises wiring mistakes and subsequent fire works!

I use modified Meanwell power supplies that are CC/CV and balance using the Hobby King battery medics. I charge to now more than 4.1v / cell and never let a cell drop below 3.2v. These are safe margins that protect the cells and prolong cell life. You could go to 4.15v / 3.0v but I like the extra margin for error.

Good luck, would like to hear how you get on....

 

[NeilP]

Can't help with the motor, sorry.

I would strongly advise you implement cell level LVC at the outset. Yes, these cells do keep good balance but you only need one to become 'lazy', drop lower than the others past the safe limit and then upon recharge it lets go and takes the the rest of the pack with it and possibly your house. No joke. On ES there are some pictures of what's left of a bike after going up in flames. Tppacks.com sell neat LVC boards that you wire into the brake cutout line to protect the cells or buy some of the cell monitors off Hobby King like the BM6 modules that give an audible alarm. If funds are tight, drop the CA and get the cell LVC sorted first. A Watts Up meter is a cheap alternative to the CA for basic monitoring.....

But unless you have seen different, I have only seen these units for up to 6 series cell packs, not 10s. The charger has a balance port, so hopefully if this occurs then the charger should pick this up. OK, the parallel packs have 4 cells in parallel...so one cell in a parallel unit may drop...how would you get around that?...would an LVC/BMS board on the bike need to be wired at individual cel level or at paralleled group level ..if you get my meaning.
This charger:
HobbyKing Online R/C Hobby Store : iCharger 1010B+ 300W 10s Balance/Charger

For charging try to work out a scheme where you don't need to reconfigure the pack each time for charging. It minimises wiring mistakes and subsequent fire works!

I use modified Meanwell power supplies that are CC/CV and balance using the Hobby King battery medics. I charge to now more than 4.1v / cell and never let a cell drop below 3.2v. These are safe margins that protect the cells and prolong cell life. You could go to 4.15v / 3.0v but I like the extra margin for error.

Good luck, would like to hear how you get on....

Had thought of charging with Meanwell packs, or Server PSU's... but then you also need a separate BMS system...the charger I was looking at has 10s balancing built in.
As for wiring, was looking at probably creating a loom, that only allows connection in one way, to minimise/eliminate the chance of getting it wrong.
Trouble with all these LVC/BMS boards, is that it is another big box on the bike frame and all the associated wiring, it just starts to get very complex on the bike. I suppose the BMS/LVC box would just connect to the two sets of paralleled balancing wires, so it would be one box with, theses wires going it to it...but then you need to connect that to the CA or controller to activate the cut out should it detect an imbalance...
Unless you can suggest a combined BMS/LVC system that is 'plug and play' for a 20series pack, then I will prob leave it for now. Would like to, but another set of boxes/wires...plus the extra thought/research now and work when the parts arrive...nah...I have enough to deal with as it is at the moment.

The trouble is, I have already spent over two months making a decision to get this far and although advice is always well meaning...no matter what is decided on, someone else will always have a different idea and the job will never get done. Thee are people on the ES forum who do run in this way successfully...OK I am sure there are problems too...but I just gotta get going otherwise in a year I will still be in the same position as now.

Thanks for the thoughts though...and still if you pointed me to a product link that would work quickly/easily with a 20s pack then I would consider it.

Cheers

Neil