Macina Action 2015: a critical failure in quality control… made worse by crap customer service

[peter-exp]

Finally, after months of patience, on Nov 4th I drive away from the bike shop (official KTM dealer in Ireland) with a 2015 Macina Action 29 plus in the back of the car: hurrah!! Ar, when I arrive home an hour later, the rock shox solo air had deflated. I call the shop, they say they'll call KTM and get back to me. They didn't, I had to chase for news: they had ordered a new fork from KTM.
2 weeks later: nothing. I emailed the shop, they replied they now ordered a fork straight with Rock Shox and would install whichever arrived first.
Tomorrow it will be 3 weeks: nothing so far. I emailed KTM for an explanation. So nearly 3 weeks after buying a new e-bike from a reputed manufacturer, it is still standing there unused. The lockout doesn't work, as the fork still threatens to bottom out even when driving on asphalt.
Some observations:
-KTM releases a bike with a bad fork
-the shop fails to detect the bad fork
-if what the shop says is true, KTM is not in a hurry to make up for the mistake
-if I order that fork from chainreactioncycles.com, I get it in a day or two, but between KTM and the shop, they can't get one in 3 weeks????

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Hi.

Firstly I should point out that we're not involved in this case, because we just look after UK dealers. So we have no direct knowledge of this case, as you're in Ireland.

However we do know how systems work with KTM, and hopefully can cast a bit of light on this for you.

Firstly, if a seal has failed in the fork, its very much a small part that simply needs replacing, its unlikely the shop / Rockshox (via their dealers support centre) or indeed KTM, would send out a complete new fork for such a relatively simply fix.

Has your bike been back to the dealer for them to look at what's caused the fork to loose air?

With regard to your observations.

-KTM releases a bike with a bad fork
-the shop fails to detect the bad fork

to be fair to KTM and the shop, you also didn't spot the fork was faulty, so its obviously not something thats been picked up by any of the parties, and KTM and the shop will have checks in place, but things can still fail.

-if what the shop says is true, KTM is not in a hurry to make up for the mistake

In the UK, any Rockshox faulty product needs to go back to the Rockshox tech centre to be fixed, so it wouldn't be KTM that resolved this issue.

http://sramtechcentre.co.uk/

I'm not sure how it works in Ireland, but I suspect there isn't any benefit in sending the bike back to Austria. In addition KTM don't supply forks on their own, so its unlikely you're dealer would be ordering new forks or replacement forks from KTM in Austria.

-if I order that fork from chainreactioncycles.com, I get it in a day or two, but between KTM and the shop, they can't get one in 3 weeks????

KTM don't generally supply forks, just complete bikes... and your shop might not be able to get any from Rockshox because CRC or other dealers have them all. Its a common misconception that because on-line retailers have stock that you can buy, it means other trade customers can get stock from the suppliers.

I'd suggest contacting your shop and taking the bike back to them so they can replace the part of the fork that has broken.

If you have any questions about the systems that are in place, please don't hesitate to contact message us and we'll happily try to support. But I would suggest contacting the shop again as a first port of call and seeing what they propose as a solution.

Regards
Tom

 

[the_killjoy]

If they cannot offer a firm date I would just return the bike and ask for a refund, I assume the SOGA in Ireland is similar to ours.

 

[peter-exp]

For clarity: I never asked for a new fork, I just reported this one had emptied itself and that the lockout didn't work. The shop said they immediately ordered a new fork with KTM.

@tom: I thank you for your answer, but somehow I don't feel it gets acknowledged that the bike was faulty before I had a chance to drive it. It shouldn't be my problem who makes the fork and where it should be sent for a repair: I bought a new bike, it was delivered to me with a critical failure, it shouldn't take over 3 weeks to fix that.

to be fair to KTM and the shop, you also didn't spot the fork was faulty, so its obviously not something thats been picked up by any of the parties, and KTM and the shop will have checks in place, but things can still fail.

a) If you could please elaborate when it was exactly, that quality control stopped being the responsibility of the manufacturer/distributor, but became a shared responsibility with the buyer?
b) while both KTM and the shop had the bike in their possession for as long as they thought adequate in order to assure a correct delivery, I just drove down the shop to pick it up: you seem now to say, that if someone takes a new bike home without taking it for a thorough test ride, he can't complain about the lack of quality control by the shop and/or manufacturer?

UPDATE: Shop has mailed me today that KTM confirmed having shipped a new fork. No answer from my question to KTM customer service so far.

I don't want to send the bike back for a refund. I waited a long time for it, I just want it to work from the day I pay for it and pick it up. And if it doesn't, I don't want to be left waiting for weeks. We're not talking about a 500 EUR bike here, but about a fairly high tech and expensive product from a European manufacturer.

 

[RobF]

Finally, after months of patience, on Nov 4th I drive away from the bike shop (official KTM dealer in Ireland) with a 2015 Macina Action 29 plus in the back of the car: hurrah!! Ar, when I arrive home an hour later, the rock shox solo air had deflated.

Peter,

I feel your pain, but the bike shop does not.

It seems to me bike shops often fail to grasp that buying a new bike is a big, big, treat purchase, often with a mental dimension, taking the buyer back to childhood memories, good and bad.

That your bike failed as soon as you got it home is the ultimate disappointment.

In those circumstances, the bike shop should at least have made a fuss over you, even if they could not/would not offer much immediate practical help.

So after a few weeks they are getting around to fixing it - big deal.

But don't be too downhearted, you have bought a decent bike which should take you on lots of cycling adventures in the coming months and years.

 

[oigoi]

If KTM couldn't come up with a fork quickly from their own stocks then they or the bike shop should have ordered one from elsewhere, like crc. I thinks its disgusting when someone pays a heck of a lot of money for something and neither the dealer or the manufacturer care about sorting it out quickly. Doesn't bode well for warranty claims in the future

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

For clarity: I never asked for a new fork, I just reported this one had emptied itself and that the lockout didn't work. The shop said they immediately ordered a new fork with KTM..


UPDATE: Shop has mailed me today that KTM confirmed having shipped a new fork. No answer from my question to KTM customer service so far.

I'd not expect a response from KTM, they generally just forward all emails onto the company that manage the country... ie if you're from the UK and you email KTM, it mostly just gets forwarded to us to deal with.

But we're, glad something has now been shipped to help you out, I'm still shocked the dealer needed to go back to KTM about this, this wouldn't happen in the UK...but each country is different I'm sure.

a) If you could please elaborate when it was exactly, that quality control stopped being the responsibility of the manufacturer/distributor, but became a shared responsibility with the buyer?
b) while both KTM and the shop had the bike in their possession for as long as they thought adequate in order to assure a correct delivery, I just drove down the shop to pick it up: you seem now to say, that if someone takes a new bike home without taking it for a thorough test ride, he can't complain about the lack of quality control by the shop and/or manufacturer?

Sorry that wasn't my intention, I'm wasn't trying to say you should have spotted it... and I can assure you that every bike is built by hand in Austria and undergoes a PDI (Pre Dispatch Inspection) before being boxed. Any competent dealer would then do another PDI before the customer picks up the bike. Clearly these PDIs are more vigorous than we'd expect any customer to undertake before loading their bike in the car.

And if any part is faulty within the warranty period it would of course be replaced or repaired as appropriate.

However if a seal has popped it could be something that takes a number of cycles of the suspension to manifest itself, or only happened a few hours after the dealer set your forks up for you, but we're glad a new fork is now on its way, and all being well there will be no issues with this Rockshox, because they are normally one of the most reliable brands of fork these days.

 

[rsyme]

Interesting you found a KTM bicycle dealer in Ireland - i live in Co Wexford and I tried to get a KTM in September 2013 and spent some time searching to no avail!! All I could find was a motorbike agent. I then went with Kalkhoff from Greenaer in Dublin, who have been great to deal with. Pity as I really favoured KTM at the time having hired one in Austria.
Cheers!

Robbie

 

[oded]

The man bought a very expensive top of the line bike, and got a faulty item.

He really shouldn't care if its the dealer's, rock shox or KTM's fault. Once its part of a KTM whole bike, I would expect for them to take full responsibility and repair or replace in a timely matter. After that you'll have plenty of time to find the guilty supplier.

The customer should not get involved with all these details.

Just fix his bike and than start sending e-mails about who is paying for it.

 

[JohnCade]

That goes to the point of the problem with warranties generally. They operate in the way the bicycle industry always did based on shops. No one has noticed that pedelecs are now much more like motor bikes than push bikes, and many of the shops don't know how to fix them. They only know how to sell them.

Totally different warranty experience with a KTM motorcycle for instance. Not that it's just about them. It's a problem with much of the industry.

 

[Wicky]

There's something amiss with the spares supply line between KTM and UK as I found when I needed a replacement KTM marked rear rim. Despite the best efforts of Col and Tom they couldn't secure the rim from factory spares despite it being a 2014 bike and still on 2015 production bikes.

I even contacted the wheel sub-manufacturer directly who said they couldn't sell one to me as they were earmarked for KTM exclusively. After 3 months I had to settle on a marvic replacement sourced by KTM distributor. Admittedly a better part for a 1/3 of the price of the OEM rim.

Not a confidence inspiring way of doing things for obtaining spares which seems a top down thing from KTM.

 

[Nealh]

Very poor when you pay good money and get a rubbish service and fobbed off.

 

[rsyme]

My dealer, Greenaer in Dublin, have a very good mechanic who has been on courses for all the bikes they sell - when I had a problem they just take the bike and sort things - when I had a motor problem they just took the bike gave me a loan of their top model and just sorted everything and returned my bike with a new motor in about a week! no quibbles, just service as one would expect!!

I've no connection with them other than as a satisfied customer!

Robbie

 

[MikeRo]

Finally, after months of patience, on Nov 4th I drive away from the bike shop (official KTM dealer in Ireland) with a 2015 Macina Action 29 plus in the back of the car: hurrah!! Ar, when I arrive home an hour later, the rock shox solo air had deflated. I call the shop, they say they'll call KTM and get back to me. They didn't, I had to chase for news: they had ordered a new fork from KTM.
2 weeks later: nothing. I emailed the shop, they replied they now ordered a fork straight with Rock Shox and would install whichever arrived first.
Tomorrow it will be 3 weeks: nothing so far. I emailed KTM for an explanation. So nearly 3 weeks after buying a new e-bike from a reputed manufacturer, it is still standing there unused. The lockout doesn't work, as the fork still threatens to bottom out even when driving on asphalt.
Some observations:
-KTM releases a bike with a bad fork
-the shop fails to detect the bad fork
-if what the shop says is true, KTM is not in a hurry to make up for the mistake
-if I order that fork from chainreactioncycles.com, I get it in a day or two, but between KTM and the shop, they can't get one in 3 weeks????

Seems an odd way to go, why didn't you just return to the shop when you found the problem?

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

That goes to the point of the problem with warranties generally. They operate in the way the bicycle industry always did based on shops. No one has noticed that pedelecs are now much more like motor bikes than push bikes, and many of the shops don't know how to fix them. They only know how to sell them.

Totally different warranty experience with a KTM motorcycle for instance. Not that it's just about them. It's a problem with much of the industry.

I think we're in danger of sometimes giving you guys a bit to much information about the supply chain and confusing things, because its clearly you giving the impression "people are passing the buck" thats not the case, its to do with the different brands of components people use and the way things work, and there are good reasons why this is different for bicycles and eBikes compared to motorbikes.

I'm afraid you're statement that pedelcs are more like motorbikes isn't really correct in a number of ways.

With KTM eBikes, if its a KTM branded part, we sort the warranty - just as KTM motorbikes do - so in that way, the bikes and motorbikes are the same, and you'd expect no difference in the service / support.

However pedal bikes and eBikes are very different to motorbikes and lots of other products in the fact that bikes (mainly high end ones) are very much a group of components from major brands that all have their own warranty and servicing ideas assembled into the shape of a bike.

Lets look at the forks on motorbikes for instance... on a KTM, they are generally KTM made, or WP - which is also a KTM company.

If you look at the pedal bike side of the business... there are a few bikes with KTM branded forks, but these are mainly the very cheap rigid forks and if they had a problem we'd supply spares from our stock.

With the suspension forks, they are either SR Suntour, RockShox or Fox. All these brands have their own warranty / servicing systems, because they generally want to look after their own systems and this service is part of what the bike brand pays for when it specs these brands on the bikes.

I'm not sure whats happened with this case in Ireland, but we had a case with some faulty SR suntour forks that came to our attention on Monday from a dealer in London. A couple of emails between us and Suntour and a new set of fork lowers is already on its way to the dealer to help the customer out. This is why we were a bit surprised that the case discussed in this thread is taking so long.

Hopefully that clears up a couple of things, and if you have a question about things we'll happily answer it to the best of our ability.

Col.

 

[JohnCade]

Car manufacturers don't make all the parts that go into a car. Just like bikes they are a collection of parts from different places. Dampers, brakes, gearboxes, even engines are found across different makers. I don't just mean car groups like Skoda being reworked VWs either. The ubiquitous 1.4 turbo diesel found in Renaults and VWs and many other cars is made and supplied by an Italian company.

The difference is that if an engine or brake system in a Polo fails they don't keep hold of the car until the supplier sends them a new engine. They take responsibility and deal with the problem through their integrated repair network. Also if you happen to be in another country you can get it sorted there though the warranty. No going back to the dealer who sold it to you who's the other side of Europe.

The old bicycle shop model might have been fine when Claud Butler was making lightweight bikes in the thirties but with modern complex e bikes it's a joke.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

John... Bosch is the biggest Ltd Company in the world... but even with a huge company like that, the eBike business is tiny tiny tiny. Nothing compared to the volume / money thats in other industries like cars.

just look at the difference between the typical retailer you by the item from - these are just random one off first page of good for VW vs eBike retailer.

who do you think is making all the money, because I can assure you its not eBike shops.

 

[oigoi]

The size of a business is irrelevant when considering customer service. Enormous or tiny, any business needs to meet the needs of it's customers to succeed. There are many ebike companies that offer great customer service, subsequently people enjoy doing business with them and recommend them to others.

 

[peter-exp]

The size of a business is irrelevant when considering customer service.

Well put. Many businesses these days that are selling products in e.g. the 100-200EUR range, manage to give you impressive customer service. But when you buy a 2.000+EUR bicycle, you get hung out dry for weeks.

What I have learned since my last posting:
As Tom said, the fork should have gone to the local rock shox centre. But Ireland apparently doesn't have such a centre, and the shop pretty much refused to do this anyways because the bike was brand new.
Contrary to what Tom predicted: KTM does have the rock shox air as production stock, they have shipped out a new fork and they have replied directly to my email. So where did this go wrong?

In their reply KTM customer service says they recorded the problem on Nov. 20th. The shop says they have been in contact with KTM from Nov. 4th., that's a gap of 16 days in registering a request from one of their official dealers. So I prodded KTM in another email and got another apologetic reply, on the same day. "As we have now created a new system to increase the quality of customer service, we will maintain more efficient communication between our quality management and the customer support, this also includes the communication between dealers and us. (…) Maybe we didn’t notice the request early enough." I asked if this was their final answer, I got no reply to that one.

Buying 'European', doesn't automatically give you a prompt warranty service. Choosing an established manufacturer doesn't automatically mean you can expect a functioning customer service department.

25 days after I had bought the bike, the shop owner drove down to our home and mounted the new fork KTM had sent him. A nice gesture to make up for their botched handover. Yet, I doesn't make up for over 3 weeks of waiting to use my new bike. If you ask me, KTM gets away with murder here.

Thanks for the nice words, appreciate it. Hope someone can benefit from me sharing the story.

 

[JamesW]

Peter,

I would assume that you have demanded paperwork from both KTM and the bike shop demanding that the warrantee does not start from the date of purchase - as it was obviously not usable then and was out of action for 3 weeks. It is only reasonable that the warrantee period starts from the date when the replacement fork was fitted!

Don't you agree Col?

James