London Road Rage

axolotl

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May 8, 2014
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All I can say is, thank goodness for social media. The police may be happy to let this aggressive, dangerous bully off with a small fine and a slap on the wrist. Happily, though, the backlash on social media is going to cost him dearly. With any luck, he'll lose his business - a far more appropriate punishment for putting lives at risk.
 
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SteveRuss

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Feb 12, 2015
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Apparently the two hour interview was with the cyclist, sorry for the confusion. Will edit post.
Wow.. Who got fined then?

When I had my recent run in with white van man, I spent at least than two hours with the police in total and they were all on my side. I can't imagine the cyclist could have been considered in the wrong from a legal standpoint.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Despite the fact that the guy could have backed off and ignored the fact that he was nearly squashed in to the gutter.
But that's exaggeration, he was not "nearly pushed into the gutter". As I pointed out, another cyclist had no bother riding straight through that gap without slowing.

This is not the first time we've had such a video of a cyclist who gets unnecessarily hysterical at a perceived rather than real threat. Our London roads are overcrowded and inadequate and it's inevitable that motor vehicles often get uncomfortably close to bikes. It's necessary for London cyclists to calmly cope with that and most do so, just as I do.

Those who can't cope should either improve or stop cycling. Continuing cycling and coping by the use of road rage, for that's what that cyclist's abusive yelling was, is not acceptable.
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SteveRuss

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But that's exaggeration, he was not "nearly pushed into the gutter". As I pointed out, another cyclist had no bother riding straight through that gap without slowing.

This is not the first time we've had such a video of a cyclist who gets unnecessarily hysterical at a perceived rather than real threat. Our London roads are overcrowded and inadequate and it's inevitable that motor vehicles often get uncomfortably close to bikes. It's necessary for London cyclists to calmly cope with that and most do so, just as I do.

Those who can't cope should either improve or stop cycling. Continuing cycling and coping by the use of road rage, for that's what that cyclist's abusive yelling was, is not acceptable.
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I still maintain that the guy passed far too closely and sadly the reality of what would have happened afterwards (if contact hadn't been made by the cyclist) will remain an unknown. Maybe the video would have captured him mowing down one of the cyclists ahead of the camera bike. Who knows...

What I saw on the video (I just re-watched the part where the two cars passed by) is that the yellow Ford Ka drove straight down the middle of two lanes and straight across the painted roundabout to pass the cyclists. He did the same. I consider that to not only be extremely poor driving but a threat to all oncoming traffic. Anyone that drives like that is a threat to other road users by default. He passed way way too close to the camera bike and the cyclist had very good reason to object to what I would consider a dangerous and threatening situation.

On a narrow road like that I would have been tempted to use more of the roadway to protect myself (which is obviously legal and advised) but then this idiot probably would have started honking and revving his engine and maybe make contact from behind. Engaging with dangerous drivers is something I will continue to do but I do respect your view that it isn't necessary.
 
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flecc

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I still maintain that the guy passed far too closely and sadly the reality of what would have happened afterwards (if contact hadn't been made by the cyclist) will remain an unknown. Maybe the video would have captured him mowing down one of the cyclists ahead of the camera bike. Who knows...
I agree the car was too close, but the rest of what you say here is an unnecessary and ridiculous assumption, showing a clear and unjustified bias against drivers.

What I saw on the video (I just re-watched the part where the two cars passed by) is that the yellow Ford Ka drove straight down the middle of two lanes and straight across the painted roundabout to pass the cyclists. He did the same. I consider that to not only be extremely poor driving but a threat to all oncoming traffic.
No it isn't, the only reason for the painted circle is to indicate the give way to the right rule applies. The mini-roundabout law clearly states that the roundabout centre can be crossed at will. Indeed, it often has to be.

On a narrow road like that I would have been tempted to use more of the roadway to protect myself (which is obviously legal and advised) but then this idiot probably would have started honking and revving his engine and maybe make contact from behind.
Me too, I take command of more road space in these situations, but once again you make an unjustified assumption about the driver. You've judged him from his behaviour after he had been wound up by the cyclist, but we've no idea what he is like normally.

The most important thing for all road users to have is tolerance. We shouldn't battle for road space or argue about it in that fashion, we should share the roads and make allowances for each other, including each other's errors. We none of us are perfect.
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Nealh

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Aug 7, 2014
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I have just watched the beginning again and the driver is not a nice person at all, as I have said he has an ego and to go with his ego he is a bully as well (I pity the people who work for hm)i .
As the car already has the window down initially the cyclist says "come on " a couple of times as he goes by and manages to catch him up, then the driver just launches in with the abuse straight away, he probably is looking for trouble straight away and obviously the red mist has already impaired his thinking. Also the fact that there is cycle lane available and not being used by this group of riders means they are on his road and how dare they impeded his progress, to me it is obvious that the driver is complete moron.
 
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SteveRuss

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I agree the car was too close, but the rest of what you say here is an unnecessary and ridiculous assumption, showing a clear and unjustified bias against drivers.



No it isn't, the only reason for the painted circle is to indicate the give way to the right rule applies. The mini-roundabout law clearly states that the roundabout centre can be crossed at will. Indeed, it often has to be.



Me too, I take command of more road space in these situations, but once again you make an unjustified assumption about the driver. You've judged him from his behaviour after he had been wound up by the cyclist, but we've no idea what he is like normally.

The most important thing for all road users to have is tolerance. We shouldn't battle for road space or argue about it in that fashion, we should share the roads and make allowances for each other, including each other's errors. We none of us are perfect.
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I don't have a bias against drivers of cars at all. I have one and drive it a lot. I've driven over 500 miles in the past two weeks including around parts of London and Birmingham. In fact, until the beginning of this year, it's been my main form of transport for years now. I've had a drivers license for 31 years now and a car for almost all of that. I do however have an intolerance to dangerous road users of any description and that is that.

I also understand the rules on painted roundabouts but I still maintain that driving that far in the middle of the roadway is dangerous. Maybe not so much for the yellow Ford Ka as they had a clear road in front of them (other than the bikes) but the Land Rover would find it hard to argue that him following along closely behind the Ford car was completely safe or necessary. He would have had a restricted view of the oncoming traffic and would have had to move back in to the left carriageway if something appeared from the other direction. A space that no longer existed due to the courtesy of the cyclists riding to the left of centre.

As far as my assumption on the driver, he is clearly on the verge of getting locked up for his behaviour not only as a cyclist hater (you can hear him shouting almost immediately that the cyclists should be in the cycle lane showing that he was already annoyed at the sense "his road" was being used erroneously by the cyclist) as well as clearly proving he is willing to use his vehicle as a weapon against another road user. The video evidence of that wouldn't require much time for any courtroom to agree on. There is simply no way that any cyclist should even remotely be seen to defend someone that behaves like that on any level I can see. Or more to the point, any road user.

You've really got me wondering where your own bias lies. You seem to have a slight bias in support of the motorists if anything; and always seem to advocate that a cyclist is better off sitting back, letting the driving crime happen and then get on with your day. I think it's just a matter of how people feel they would react in any given situation. In my situation, if someone is getting beaten up in the road, i'll probably be the first in to calm the situation down. I don't take the back off and walk away approach with me through life and hopefully will remain an active member in support of the common good.
 
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A friend of mine was convicted of careless driving for driving straight across a mini roundabout when it was clear. The police said he should have slowed down and attempted to go round even though it was just a painted circle like the one in the video.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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You've really got me wondering where your own bias lies.
I don't have one, I try to be fair to both sides. As I've said, that driver was too close and I don't try to defend that.

What I do argue against is the panicky and unnecessary reaction of the cyclist which created a civil order dispute. That does absolutely no good, but does harm the cause of cycling by reinforcing any anti-cyclist feeling drivers may have.

I've no objection to a cyclist speaking politely to an errant driver if the opportunity arises, such as a subsequent stop. But I've never seen any evidence that this ever does any good, but plenty of evidence of the harm it does to driver-cyclist relations, as in this case. Therefore, what is the point?
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flecc

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A friend of mine was convicted of careless driving for driving straight across a mini roundabout when it was clear. The police said he should have slowed down and attempted to go round even though it was just a painted circle like the one in the video.
If there were no dangerous speeds involved, that was probably a wrongful conviction and he should have appealed. A mini-roundabout can be crossed at will, the junction treated like any other when no other vehicles are present.
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selrahc1992

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 10, 2014
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I don't have one, I try to be fair to both sides. As I've said, that driver was too close and I don't try to defend that.

What I do argue against is the panicky and unnecessary reaction of the cyclist which created a civil order dispute. That does absolutely no good, but does harm the cause of cycling by reinforcing any anti-cyclist feeling drivers may have.

I've no objection to a cyclist speaking politely to an errant driver if the opportunity arises, such as a subsequent stop. But I've never seen any evidence that this ever does any good, but plenty of evidence of the harm it does to driver-cyclist relations, as in this case. Therefore, what is the point?
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as an aside - i think people do things in cars (cut each other off, dangerously, scream abuse, show each other obscene signs, bully each other) they wouldnt dream off doing in public as individuals. I thought about thsi recently in calais, as a further aside, while noticing a couple banging teh living daylight out of each other in a car in a public parking area. I've no idea what cuses this - an aura of invincibility? or power? a little man in a very big four wheel drive like that will no doubt feel more powerful than i do in my 1100cc runabout. or the fantasy that they could escape under any corcumstances? or anonymity. To me, though, that was deliberate dangerous driving, which riked possible severe harm to others, and deserved more than a £90 fine
 
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selrahc1992

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Dec 10, 2014
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Nice discussion about mini roundabouts here. As far as I can figure out from it, it is indeed a requirement to go round the dot except wnen it's not practical. Before 2002, it was an absolute requirement.

http://www.advanced-driving.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=52295
the mini roundabout proposition - it's right up there with fermat's equation, judging by teh discourse on that page. i find putting assis6tance to max and bunnyhoping over the middle is a foolproof formula for upsetting several motorists simultaneously
 

jonathan75

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Apr 24, 2013
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I've no objection to a cyclist speaking politely to an errant driver if the opportunity arises, such as a subsequent stop. But I've never seen any evidence that this ever does any good, but plenty of evidence of the harm it does to driver-cyclist relations, as in this case. Therefore, what is the point?
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I don't see how pointing out to someone they nearly killed you can harm driver cyclist relations. Surely the reckless driver in a given case, harmed those relations, and telling them about their recklessness is the least justice and education requires.

I don't think there are relations between the whole of cyclists as a group and the entirety of motorists. That seems to me an imaginary construct. If some or many individuals tend to wish to take their anger out on members of another group, when those latter individuals didn't harm or threaten them, and it turns into a cycle of recrimination and prejudice, then that's not group relations, that's something else. Mass idiocy perhaps.
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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I don't see how pointing out to someone they nearly killed you can harm driver cyclist relations.
But why this gross exaggeration? Just because a driver gets close enough to make a cyclist feel uncomfortable, that doesn't mean they "nearly killed".

The cyclist alone is a huge variable. Where one might not feel unhappy about the closeness, a second might feel uncomfortable while a third might panic about it.

Why must cyclists in threads such as this always quote the worst possible case?

I repeat, when cycling I have passes as close and on the odd occasion, worse than this one in this thread, but have never been knocked off or hurt in any way. That says that drivers do generally know what they are doing, despite that closeness to bikes being wrong.

I shouldn't bother to take part in these threads, given the extremist views. Some years ago I tried to argue for reason in a car magazine where there had been a rant against cyclists, but that was also a waste of time. The unreasonableness and extremism in the opposite direction was just as evident.
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SteveRuss

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 12, 2015
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A friend of mine was convicted of careless driving for driving straight across a mini roundabout when it was clear. The police said he should have slowed down and attempted to go round even though it was just a painted circle like the one in the video.
If I remember correctly, you are supposed to attempt to make an effort to use painted roundabouts as normal roundabouts where possible. I could probably bother to look this up but in the pub on my iPhone so maybe someone else can clarify.

I think the point of them is to apply the roundabout traffic flow rules to smaller junctions that would otherwise clog up. Sound a bit poo to get done for it though. Cops must have been bored!!
 
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RobF

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Sep 22, 2012
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The driver was fined for a public order offence.

The problem with that is the cyclist was equally guilty of that offence so he has been fortunate.

I agree pretty much with flecc on the pass.

Closer then desirable but not worth making such a fuss about.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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If I remember correctly, you are supposed to attempt to make an effort to use painted roundabouts as normal roundabouts where possible. I could probably bother to look this up but in the pub on my iPhone so maybe someone else can clarify.

I think the point of them is to apply the roundabout traffic flow rules to smaller junctions that would otherwise clog up. Sound a bit poo to get done for it though. Cops must have been bored!!
Yes, it seems that is the case, despite some previous government advice to the contrary. All a bit silly though, since some of ours are impossible to circumnavigate in anything other than a toy pedal car.

I've just been looking at the government guidance for local authorities and others and find that the centre circle in restricted spaces can be as little as one metre in diameter, and some of ours are tiny like that. There isn't a car on the road with a turning circle able to cope with that.

It's like so much modern law, "you must do this, but only if such-and-such exists, and even then it might not apply". The cycling on the pavements law is a typical example, it's always an offence but at least two groups cannot be prosecuted for doing it and officialdom actually says it's ok in some circumstances.
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SteveRuss

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 12, 2015
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Nice discussion about mini roundabouts here. As far as I can figure out from it, it is indeed a requirement to go round the dot except wnen it's not practical. Before 2002, it was an absolute requirement.

http://www.advanced-driving.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=52295
A friend told me that when he took his drivers licence in the 90's. I took mine early 80's but what he said it stuck with me and that was exactly it. Cheers for taking the time to look it up!
 

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