London in Flames!

[indalo]

No way John, I think one has to be mentally ill to become a politician.

You're probably not far wrong with that remark Flecc and there's a quotation embedded somewhere deep in my mind that I can't quite remember properly but it goes something like this:

"Any man declaring his intention to stand for parliament should be automatically disbarred from so doing!"

I suspect it's one of Oscar Wilde's but having spent 2 minutes on an unsuccessful Google search, I gave up through boredom. Having tried very hard to watch tonight's Question Time special, it has degenerated into a right old Irish parliament with everybody talking and nobody listening so I have switched off.

The thought in my mind as I head for bed is, whose idea was it that abolishing capital punishment was the way forward? Who sat on a committee and actually decided open prisons were a great idea?......etc, etc, etc.

"I don't believe it!"
Indalo

 

[shep]

What was strange about Question Time tonite was how for the first 30 minutes the crowd were all CUT OFF THERE HEADS, THROW THEM IN JAIL and THROW AWAY THE KEY. Then when a bit of logical reason appeared the mood changed completely

I believe the looters as feral rats should be punished harshly, and then while the courts are still in emergency session lets get the feral elite in for punishment as well, because lets face it there crimes are of a completely different magnitude and financial scale

Poor people go to jail, rich people use there political connections so that the law does not apply to them. Probably how Tony Blair ended up with a fantastically paid job at JP MorganChase as he was so qualified to be a banker after destroying the finances of Great Britain

NO LEADERSHIP = A VERY RESTLESS CREW

 

[flecc]

That certainly sounds like Wilde, Indalo, but I suspect it's a thought that has passed many minds over time.

Although I remarked that a politician can only please a small portion of the population, in reality their attempts to please all with a mish-mash of many parts inevitably results in pleasing no-one.

Instead of the elective dictatorship system we suffer, back in 2006 in this forum I proposed a truly democratic system of governance that modern technology had made possible, a system where it really would be the people in control and all decisions would be knowledge based.

Here is the link to that post

 

[tillson]

I think that the media have a certain amount of responsibility for fuelling the situation of the last few days. The BBC's reporting leaves me wanting to punch the TV set. They are constantly drip feeding us with subtle messages which blame spending cuts and the police for what has happened, giving airtime to masked / hooded filth and playing carefully edited scenes which promote their liberal agenda.

They played the same scene from the Manchester riots of a police officer striking a man on his left thigh with a baton, 4 times in a six minute period the other morning. I have no idea what lead up to that incident, but I can guess what will be coming and the reasons for the BBC's repeated showing of that clip.

Later, I watched an interview with that poor Asian man who's son had been murdered only hours earlier. He spoke with impressive calm and came over as a man with great dignaty and grace as he appealed for thoughtfulness and restraint. The BBC's reporter repeatedly and persistantly tried to goad him into making comments about the police response, to which he continually declined to do so.

There has been idle talk of Bill Bratton, "the man who cleaned up New York" taking over the Metropolitan Police. Whilst this will never happen and even if by some chance it did, he would fail. The problem is, the UK police aren't allowed enough, "fire power". And when the street vermin we saw a few nights ago do get their medicine, there are too many people who are totally insulated and untouched by the reality of events sticking their noses in.

That rioting over the weekend should have been instantly crushed by an overwhelmingly aggressive response from the police. If 6 officers are expected to take on 60+ sewer rats who are burning building with people inside them, robbing hard working families of their livelihood, and throwing bottles of burning petrol at officers, then they should be authorised to use baton rounds, tear gas, dogs, and even live rounds of ammunition. If little Johnny doesn't come home again or receives a life altering injury, then that's OK, it was necessary, nobody should be bothered, there are plenty more where he came from, its no loss. An awful and unwelcome situation, but that's what we have all created by allowing liberal minded fools to carry out experiments on us and our society. They have created a foul monster which needs to be destroyed and it isn't going to be pleasent.

We need a total news blackout on the rioting. No reporting at all, just let the authorities sort it out, no questions asked.

Tough talking Dave now has a golden oportunity to put the Human Rights Act where it belongs and to unleash hell on those intent on hurting law abiding hard working people. I even think he would win a general election if the Liberals caved in. But somehow, I think he will fail to grasp the nettle and the moment will pass, with the BBC prevailing.

 

[eTim]

If 6 officers are expected to take on 60+ sewer rats who are burning building with people inside them, robbing hard working families of their livelihood, and throwing bottles of burning petrol at officers, then they should be authorised to use baton rounds, tear gas, dogs, and even live rounds of ammunition. If little Johnny doesn't come home again or receives a life altering injury, then that's OK, it was necessary, nobody should be bothered, there are plenty more where he came from, its no loss. An awful and unwelcome situation, but that's what we have all created by allowing liberal minded fools to carry out experiments on us and our society. They have created a foul monster which needs to be destroyed and it isn't going to be pleasent.

I read this quote and I thought of this article..........

The moral decay of our society is as bad at the top as the bottom – Telegraph Blogs

now if we applied the same logic to the elite of the UK, that appear to have f*cked us all up royally, the police would be battering down the doors of bankers and MP's and the courts would be giving them the same harsh treatment that we want dealt out to 'sewer rats'.

Surely the 'elite' are as culpable of ruining peoples livelihood? People have/are losing jobs and houses, families are suffering. Do we not already find ourselves in an awful and unwelcome situation? A situation that will last far longer than passing riots.

So we do little about those bankers and prime ministers that allowed such a situation to happen, but yet their consequences are far worse than a bit of rioting and looting.

What a very strange democracy we live in!

PS Tillson, I agree with your quoted comment, I'm just adding another dimension to them

 

[indalo]

Before anyone of a liberal disposition attempts to dismantle your posting with the usual "buts" and "what if?", I'd like to congratulate you Tillson for posting such a frank and, in my view, absolutely correct appraisal of the recent sequence of events.

I agree with your opinions 100% on this issue and I really don't mind being thought of as fascist in this case. What we saw this last week was sheer anarchy by scum and it must be stopped by whatever means are required. Your remarks about the media are, unfortunately, spot-on. TV in particular has much to answer for and even the BBC has lost its professionalism in the way it deals with issues such as we have just witnessed.

I sincerely hope we don't hire the American from Chicago to run the Met as I believe we have little if anything to learn from the US in matters of social harmony or law and order.....or anything else, come to that!

Thanks for posting such a clear and unambiguous opinion as I was beginning to think it was just me who felt that way!

What channel's the Jeremy Kyle show on this afternoon?

Regards,
Indalo

 

[indalo]

This is the current cellular availability as reported on the BBC online news today:

The prison population in England and Wales has reached a record high - up 440 since riots hit parts of the UK.

There are now 85,324 prison inmates, with less than 2,000 places spare.

But the government says there is still room for anyone jailed in relation to the rioting and disorder in England since last Saturday.

The Ministry of Justice says it is "fairly confident" it can get the "headroom" it needs in prisons but contingency plans are in place.

These include putting an extra bed in a two-person cell, so that three prisoners would have to share one cell, it says.

The Youth Justice Board says there is also "ample" spare capacity in secure children's homes and secure training centres which hold young offenders from the age of 10.

The MOJ's numbers include prisons and young offender institutions.

Indalo

 

[flecc]

I didn't watch Question Time as I knew it would just be the same silly establishment outrage, bleating and bigotry that we hear from all our hopelessly out-of-touch politicians.

The people who are being describes as filth, mindless, thugs, lazy, greedy and many other epithets were presumable just the same last month, last year etc, so why didn't they riot then? This is the blunt answer to the idiots who say that the shooting dead of one man by the police was not the cause. Of course it was, it was why they rioted right now.

Overall this is about the obscene inequalities in our society and the way the different classes in society are treated by the establishment, the "have-nots" vs the "haves", this again a blunt answer to those who insist it's not about deprivation. Of course it is, being a "have-not" is by definition being deprived of certain things. In the societies such as Norway and Sweden which by their governance don't allow huge inequalities of wealth, they don't suffer regular disturbances, civil unrest and riots.

As for dealing with the situation, did the brute force in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Syria succeed in suppressing those who their governments and many citizens described as criminals? Did brute force solve the serious civil unrest in Northern Ireland? Did the brutal Russian crackdown in Chechnya stop the rebels continuing attacks? No of course they didn't, they just fanned the flames in every case. No matter what the reason, justification or lack of justification for civil unrest, suppressing it with brutal force is always a silly thing to do and ultimately makes the future worse.

What we most need at present is what we lack most, people who think before they open their mouths.

 

[indalo]

Although I remarked that a politician can only please a small portion of the population, in reality their attempts to please all with a mish-mash of many parts inevitably results in pleasing no-one.

Instead of the elective dictatorship system we suffer, back in 2006 in this forum I proposed a truly democratic system of governance that modern technology had made possible, a system where it really would be the people in control and all decisions would be knowledge based.

Some Cromwellian common sense there Flecc and he is one of English history's great characters in my book. If he were alive today, he'd probably do it all again, though better, I'd hope!

Indalo

 

[tillson]

As for dealing with the situation, did the brute force in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Syria succeed in suppressing those who their governments and many citizens described as criminals? Did brute force solve the serious civil unrest in Northern Ireland? Did the brutal Russian crackdown in Chechnya stop the rebels continuing attacks? No of course they didn't, they just fanned the flames in every case. No matter what the reason, justification or lack of justification for civil unrest, suppressing it with brutal force is always a silly thing to do and ultimately makes the future worse.

I agree with you on most things, but not on this. The situation over the weekend was different, it was wanton criminal damage, theft, burglary, arson, riot, assault, robbery and a host of other offences. There is no parralel to to be drawn here.

I do agree that a massive travesty of justice has taken place with regard to our bankers and politicians expenses. I have not forgotten how people like Sir Frederick Anderson Goodwin who through grotesque greed has devestated the lives of many silent and hard working people. People who because of him and others like him are now faced with years of working into old age instead of enjoying retirement. We have seen politicians greedily hoovering up vast sums of money from the public purse. We have seen politicians commit acts for which an ordinary worker would be instantly dismissed. But we have also had to witness them escape any form of penalty. These deeds are as bad, if not worse than anything witnessed over the weekend. Those, and there must be many of them, touched by all of this must be incandescent with rage.

The "Goodwins" should have been stripped naked, dipped in raw sewage and paraded through the streets astride an ox. Finally, they should have been stripped of any knighthood or other honour and put in prison. Instead, we give them gigantic payoffs or bonuses and fairytale pension pots. Then, we all forget about it because the BBC has just reported that Katie price has got a new horse box and she has painted it pink.

Our banks and parliament are populated by suits and dresses full of effluent, whereas our street over the weekend were populated with tracksuits full of the same stuff. No difference, it all need flushing away.

 

[flecc]

Returning to the theme of what to do, the answer already exists but few seem to realise it.

The most peaceful and happy decade of the last 60 years was the 1960s. The nearest we had to disturbances then were the peaceful anti-nuclear protest marches and meetings where the citizens were almost all of one mind, and the usual youth tribalism that always exists. Then that was mods versus rockers, which frankly was more entertainment than dangerous unrest, indeed a full length film was later made about it, "Quadrophenia".

So what was the magic secret of the 1960s? It was twofold, first a very low level of central governance with the population largely directing the way society went (it's called democracy), and second, very full employment. The job availability was such that employers were desperate for staff and bribed to get people. My own company paid any employee two weeks wages for introducing anyone who stayed a minimum of just six weeks, and that was commonplace.

These circumstances automatically created greater equality of wealth and employment conditions, since with jobs plentiful anyone could migrate at will to the best company and pay, enforcing fairly equal treatment by all employers. For example, the group I worked amongst had suffered a slight relative drift in pay compared with others, but it only took my mentioning this to the bosses to get it immediately corrected.

Of course central government hated this loss of control and power, so through the 1970s and particularly the 1980s, they increased their regulation and control of the population while allowing and even encouraging mass unemployment as a control measure, things which have continued since.

What's been happening recently is the culmination of the stupidity of those governments of both persuasions, as the saying goes, "reap as ye shall sew".

So there's your answers, nothing to do with brutal crackdowns, nothing to do with more laws and punishment, nothing to do with psychologically based solutions.

Central government just needs to get off peoples backs and concentrate on just one thing, creating very full employment by any means. That takes care of the primary deprivation that lies at the root of these troubles, lack of opportunity. And as shown, once that full employment is achieved, the inequalities tend to melt away as a natural function of employer need.
.

 

[eTim]

Returning to the theme of what to do, the answer already exists but few seem to realise it.

The most peaceful and happy decade of he last 60 years was the 1960s. The nearest we had to disturbances then were the peaceful anti-nuclear protest marches and meetings where the citizens were almost all of one mind, and the usual youth tribalism that always exists. Then that was mods versus rockers, which frankly was more entertainment than dangerous unrest, indeed a full length film was later made about it, "Quadrophenia".

So what was the magic secret of the 1960s? It was twofold, first a very low level of central governance with the population largely directing the way society went (it's called democracy), and second, very full employment. The job availability was such that employers were desperate for staff and bribed to get people. My own company paid any employee two weeks wages for introducing anyone who stayed a minimum of just six weeks, and that was commonplace.

These circumstances automatically created greater equality of wealth and employment conditions, since with jobs plentiful anyone could migrate at will to the best company and pay, enforcing fairly equal treatment by all employers. For example, the group I worked amongst had suffered a slight relative drift in pay compared with others, but it only took my mentioning this to the bosses to get it immediately corrected.

Of course central government hated this loss of control and power, so through the 1970s and particularly the 1980s, they increased their regulation and control of the population while allowing and even encouraging mass unemployment as a control measure, things which have continued since.

What's been happening recently is the culmination of the stupidity of those governments of both persuasions, as the saying goes, "reap as ye shall sew".

So there's your answers, nothing to do with brutal crackdowns, nothing to do with more laws and punishment, nothing to do with psychologically based solutions.

Central government just needs to get off peoples backs and concentrate on just one thing, creating very full employment by any means. That takes care of the primary deprivation that lies at the root of these troubles, lack of opportunity. And as shown, once that full employment is achieved, the inequalities tend to melt away as a natural function of employer need.
.

So it was nothing to do with Peace, Love and LSD ??!! My illusions are shattered.

 

[flecc]

I agree with you on most things, but not on this. The situation over the weekend was different, it was wanton criminal damage, theft, burglary, arson, riot, assault, robbery and a host of other offences. There is no parralel to to be drawn here..

I didn't draw a parallel on the events, which is why I said this:

"No matter what the reason, justification or lack of justification"

The parallel was on the reaction, how useless brute force is against any civil unrest.

 

[flecc]

So it was nothing to do with Peace, Love and LSD ??!! My illusions are shattered.

A bit of mistiming there Tim, that was mostly right at the end of the '60s and well into the '70s, the hippy culture. Here's me wearing the "hippy" flares in the '70s:

 

[shep]

Brilliant post above Flecc, absolutely brilliant. My wife is Ukrainian and she always states that what the communists do was take away all hope, so that all that was left was Vodka and petty violence.

I have been self employed all my life, since i left school !!!!! 31 years ago. I have always voted Conservative as i detest socialism BUT i am passionate about one thing

Every kid from any background has the right to HOPE. All that should be provided is a life roadmap that extols the benefits of Employment, Education,Hard Work and Family. However then making a life for yourself is your responsibility.

It seems to me that what New Labour (which is just as S$&t as labour) achieved is what the communists in Soviet Union achieved, they abolished HOPE. When you have hope, you have a future. There will always be idiots who just do not want to be part of society, many of these were on show in these riots. Well then you have every reason to SLAM THEM, AS THERE IS NO EXCUSE.

The establishment allways run with PROBLEM - REACTION - SOLUTION watch the news carefully and you will see what i mean, this is the normal modus operandi. First a problem happens or is manufactured, then you garner a reaction and THEN YOU PROVIDE A SOLUTION.

Now we have a riot problem, the masses are up in arms they want blood, SO WE PROVIDE THE SOLUTION

Massive Curtailment of Civil Liberties, it is just so convenient for the state.

Now if the Poll Tax or Student Riots happen again, they can be met with a whole raft of new legislation designed to stop riots and by extension any form of dissent

"Any form of uprising automatically means the justification of greater state oppression"
- Joseph Stalin 1951

Or what about riots and protests that have changed history such as what swept across Eastern Europe in the late 80,s that ended numerous VICIOUS and MURDEROUS REGIMES. Or the Arab spring which is still happening. All of these states immediately branded the rioters as TERRORISTS every one, it is just too convenient for any Authoritarian State. SO BEWARE of knee jerk ill thought out legislation, as it may just be used ON YOU ONE DAY.

It is a tragedy but often violence does work, the state knows this. Oppressive regimes use the Police and Military to prosecute Violence and often against there own people. A Military is either for defence or if used offensively it is the ultimate extension of STATE TERROR. Just ask any Russian Villager living with the German Army in 1942.

I know that the financial situation in Britain will get much worse, and i am worried that they are now trying to nip in the bud any future forms of dissent, these chav riots will be used as the reason.

I leave you with one other thought

" The tree of liberty needs to be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots"
- Thomas Jefferson

These chavs were not patriots, but many who have demonstrated around the world at various times in history and often violently certainly were.

 

[indalo]

I have been self employed all my life, since i left school !!!!! 31 years ago. I have always voted Conservative as i detest socialism BUT i am passionate about one thing

Every kid from any background has the right to HOPE.
It seems to me that what New Labour (which is just as S$&t as labour) achieved is what the communists in Soviet Union achieved, they abolished HOPE.

Shep, I think you perhaps need to re-think your politics. Your party of choice, more than any other, is guilty of removing hope from the people. It was the tory party who chose to decimate British industry, not New Labour or even old Labour. There is no fairness in tory values and we know that life isn't fair. For that reason alone, no-one with any shred of humanity in this 21st century should align with tory values because they have no values, no scruples and no morals.

Indalo

 

[flecc]

Thanks shep. I've often said "Government is not the answer, it's the problem", for that is so often the case.

Employment brings opportunity, a legitimate share in the good things of our consumer society and a chance to better oneself. Without employment and the income and chances that result, there is no hope. Welfare is not an answer, it's an admission of defeat and a membership card into the club of the disenfranchised.

Everyone should at all times have the opportunity to work according to their ability for what they need, to support themselves and their families. In that way they have pride and self respect, a stake in society and a vested interest in it's protection and future.

 

[indalo]

I wonder if the programmers at ITV4 had "A Clockwork Orange" scheduled before the events of the last week or whether it's simply coincidence? For those who have never seen it, it's a terrible bit of cinema depicting anarchic violence from a bunch of young thugs.

Indalo

 

[funkylyn]

Shep, I think you perhaps need to re-think your politics. Your party of choice, more than any other, is guilty of removing hope from the people. It was the tory party who chose to decimate British industry, not New Labour or even old Labour. There is no fairness in tory values and we know that life isn't fair. For that reason alone, no-one with any shred of humanity in this 21st century should align with tory values because they have no values, no scruples and no morals.

Indalo

LOL.....Dont think he does need to Indalo.....I'm a tory voter and I consider myself to have more than just a shred of humanity, values, scruples AND morals......as I said before...it would be boring if we were all alike, I prefer to have my political discussions in person.......but I am sure you agree that everyone is entitled to their opinion and beliefs

Lynda

 

[eTim]

A bit of mistiming there Tim, that was mostly right at the end of the '60s and well into the '70s, the hippy culture. Here's me wearing the "hippy" flares in the '70s:

View attachment 2594

Cool Flecc, cool and I'm diggin the chopper.

I hope you didn't drop any acid when flying that thing man