Li-ion Battery Life

[4beeches0]

On my second charge of my Li-ion battery I was pleasantly surprised to achieve 23 miles, the red light had started to come on a couple of times as I neared home so its now back on charge. I plan to do one more full discharge before I switch to the top up after every trip routine. I did get a yellow warning light after just 10 miles and thought this was some indication that I was nearing the end of the available power. What sort of mileage are other Liv owners achieving with their Li-ion batteries ?

John

 

[Brangdon]

I have a new Liv. On the first two charges it did about 17 miles until it cut out. On the third charge it managed about 20. I gather it is normal for the range to increase over the first few charges (the manual mentions it). The amber light seemed to come on at 50% after the second charge, and a bit later for the third.

It sounds like I got slightly better than you on my first charge and slightly worse on the later ones. That might be down to the way we use it. I tend to keep it on full throttle all the time, but also peddling moderately hard for speed. I think I was averaging about 15mph, although I've not measured it recently. The roads are mostly gentle slopes. It's been more windy recently than it was when I started.

I'm planning to start more frequent charges now, and I'll probably do another range test after a month or so to see how it is doing then.

 

[flecc]

I have a new Liv. On the first two charges it did about 17 miles until it cut out. On the third charge it managed about 20. I gather it is normal for the range to increase over the first few charges (the manual mentions it).

Yes, all batteries need running in and increase capacity initially. With Li-ion, two to four full charges and full discharges are best initially, and I prefer four to make sure. Thereafter charge at every opportunity with each use, however short.

After running in for two or three charges to get about full capacity, NiMh have the unusual characteristic of then very slightly increasing the capacity still further over about the first 100 charges, and then slowly declining after that until the end of life.
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[4beeches0]

Just completed my third run to discharge the battery. Managed 21 miles but guess I could have reached 24 or maybe even more as the yellow light didn't come on at rest. I use the throttle very frugally, just sufficient to reduce the amount of pedal power needed - as a result I am averaging around 14mph but I'm not in any hurry. It was interesting to see Brangdon getting similar mileage to me yet using a lot more throttle. I tend to regard mileage performance in a similar way to a car, more throttle less mpg. I must add that I think the Liv is a brilliant bike, oodles of power when you need it, comfortable and no irritating rattles or squeals from the brakes.

John

 

[skoolrun]

Have I got this right?

Yes, all batteries need running in and increase capacity initially. With Li-ion, two to four full charges and full discharges are best initially, and I prefer four to make sure. Thereafter charge at every opportunity with each use, however short.

After running in for two or three charges to get about full capacity, NiMh have the unusual characteristic of then very slightly increasing the capacity still further over about the first 100 charges, and then slowly declining after that until the end of life.
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Hi,

I have recently purchased a torq (2nd hand) and am still very much getting used to it and the pleasure of using off road routes on my twice weekly commute. I have read this thread with interest regarding the best way to maximize Li-ion battery life through correct charging routine. If I have understood this correctly, for my own case, with a round trip of about 15 miles, I would be better charging the battery on arrival at work and again on returning home rather than once each evening on completion of the round trip? I was hoping to charge overnight on economy 7

 

[allotmenteer]

Hi,

I have recently purchased a torq (2nd hand) and am still very much getting used to it and the pleasure of using off road routes on my twice weekly commute. I have read this thread with interest regarding the best way to maximize Li-ion battery life through correct charging routine. If I have understood this correctly, for my own case, with a round trip of about 15 miles, I would be better charging the battery on arrival at work and again on returning home rather than once each evening on completion of the round trip? I was hoping to charge overnight on economy 7

Hello skoolrun

Yes definitely charge at work to reduce the wear on the li-ion battery. Besides it's cheaper to charge at work

 

[flecc]

Yes, as allotmenteer says, charge at both ends. The rule is as I've said with all lithium batteries, charge at every opportunity, and avoid trying for most miles from a charge. Always aim for least possible miles between charges.
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[MikeB]

Yes, as allotmenteer says, charge at both ends. The rule is as I've said with all lithium batteries, charge at every opportunity, and avoid trying for most miles from a charge. Always aim for least possible miles between charges.
.

HI

Is this the same ruling for Li Manganese batteries as fitted to the whisper range??

 

[skoolrun]

Many thanks allotmenteer/flecc I will recharge at every oportunity. Just a further thought, is a partial recharge during a break in my journey worthwhile or should it always be a full charge?

 

[flecc]

HI

Is this the same ruling for Li Manganese batteries as fitted to the whisper range??

Yes Mike, they are all Lithium-Ion, Li-ion for short, even those called Li-poly or Lithium Polymer, the Polymer referring to the electrolyte composition type.

Any chemical names appended refer to the main cathode material. Originally all Li-ion were cobalt only, but they were prone to fires, so for safety they changed to Manganese, as used by eZee and Wisper.

The theoretically best cathode is iron, and batteries are starting to appear using this, referred to as Lithium iron, no doubt to cause future confusion with Lithium ion! For that reason I refer to this latest type by the formula LiFePO4. (Lithium Iron Phosphate).
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[flecc]

Many thanks allotmenteer/flecc I will recharge at every oportunity. Just a further thought, is a partial recharge during a break in my journey worthwhile or should it always be a full charge?

Yes, a partial recharge is good to keep the battery topped up and won't do any harm. As a bonus the bike performs better if the battery is as full as possible.
.

 

[MikeB]

Yes Mike, they are all Lithium-Ion, Li-ion for short, even those called Li-poly or Lithium Polymer, the Polymer referring to the electrolyte composition type.

Any chemical names appended refer to the main cathode material. Originally all Li-ion were cobalt only, but they were prone to fires, so for safety they changed to Manganese, as used by eZee and Wisper.

The theoretically best cathode is iron, and batteries are starting to appear using this, referred to as Lithium iron, no doubt to cause future confusion with Lithium ion! For that reason I refer to this latest type by the formula LiFePO4. (Lithium Iron Phosphate).
.

Thanks

It could be confusing thats for certain

Thanks again

Mike

 

[skoolrun]

Yes, a partial recharge is good to keep the battery topped up and won't do any harm. As a bonus the bike performs better if the battery is as full as possible.
.

Thanks for that, any excuse to stop off for a cup of tea on my way home is welcome

 

[Gaynor]

Another limiting factor is the terrain. In very hilly country with a rider not making sufficient contribution, overload cut-outs can be experienced on bikes using powerful motors, and this gets worse as capacity reduces, therefore limiting the life to the point where the cut-out frequency becomes intolerable

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I have had my Quando 2 for about a year now? (although there was the 3 month wait with it going back and forward so not being used)
I think the hills here in Hastings are far too hilly, which as shortened the life span of the battery, as I frequently have to stop as it cuts out, and this is from when i first set out, I started walking the bike up the steeper areas, but its steep all the way back up from the old town, up back past hastings castle, up to the Conquest hospital.

I have been using my bike on average twice a week, plus there was a lot of bad days with rainy weather this summer, that stopped me using the bike.
Also I keep the battery in the house, where it is a bit too warm, there isnt a cool place, no garage unfortunatly.
Was wondering if to go for the other battery, if its going to last longer, but I only went for up to 6 mile rides, or mostly under 3 miles, but using a very steep hill/roads.
The bikes that boost should be allowed to use going up hill, as you are still going at a speed much slower than the straight.
Long time no see btw

 

[flecc]

Hello Gaynor. The eZee NiMh battery is more suitable for steep hills as it doesn't cut out under excess load, and it would do your journeys ok. The battery is £190, but unfortunately you'd have to have an NiMh charger as well. The set of NiMh battery and charger costs £250.
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[Steven]

Quando for sell on Ebay

In pursuit of buying my second Electric Bicycle found a used Quando for sell on Ebay. Asked the seller what his reserve was for the bike and pointed out the lithium battery life issue. Below his response appears the Quando has put my mind at rest when my Torque anniversary comes along my battery will still have 3-4 years left?

According to the manufacture manual this battery holds its full capacity for 1500 charge cycles. I used it for a year i.e. approximately 300 cycles, so this battery has at least 1000-1200 cycles of full capacity left in it. That means if you where to ride it every day it will probably last you for 3-4 years. After 1500 charge cycles battery still holds charge but at a reduced rate i.e. 90-80%. If you have any other questions please let me know.

 

[allotmenteer]

In pursuit of buying my second Electric Bicycle found a used Quando for sell on Ebay. Asked the seller what his reserve was for the bike and pointed out the lithium battery life issue. Below his response appears the Quando has put my mind at rest when my Torque anniversary comes along my battery will still have 3-4 years left?

According to the manufacture manual this battery holds its full capacity for 1500 charge cycles. I used it for a year i.e. approximately 300 cycles, so this battery has at least 1000-1200 cycles of full capacity left in it. That means if you where to ride it every day it will probably last you for 3-4 years. After 1500 charge cycles battery still holds charge but at a reduced rate i.e. 90-80%. If you have any other questions please let me know.

These sort of claims are made about lithium batteries all the time. They may well be true in laboratory conditions but in the real world they are far off the mark. There are many people on this forum experiencing premature failure or reduced capacity of their lithium batteries. Lithium batteries also age whether or not they are used which is another issue with them. I reckon you'll be lucky to get 2 years from a lithium before capacity reduces so much as to make it unusable for all but the shortest trips.

 

[flecc]

Steven, that supplier statement is totally worthless nonsense and in fact is in breach of the law. My Quando manual which I have in front of me does not say that, and in fact makes no mention of life.

Battery industry opinion is that lithium batteries stand 500 full charges and lose capacity at the rate of approximately 33% per annum, so the statements of 1500 charges and 90-80% after 1500 charge cycles is dishonest in the extreme.

As allotmenteer says, two years is about it for most users, and 500, possibly up to 800 full charges is the limit.
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[Gaynor]

Hello Gaynor. The eZee NiMh battery is more suitable for steep hills as it doesn't cut out under excess load, and it would do your journeys ok. The battery is £190, but unfortunately you'd have to have an NiMh charger as well. The set of NiMh battery and charger costs £250.
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Hi Flec
Just having a look at 50cycles, and thought its a pity they dont do the F series Forza with the NiMh battery, I think that bike would give me that extra power I need for up hill, as surely it cant be ilegal if the top speed uphill is still a fraction of the speed on a straight road.
I have been looking out for the numbers you used to get on roads, where it told you how steep it is, but cant find them on any of the local roads, I ussualy walk (or peddle with my Quando), where many people would rarther take the lift up, as i live up the top of there (great sea view from up here) Hastings Cliff Railways and keep going up to Ore. I have tried to do that google earth thing you do.
How do we measure gradients on maps,how does a map indicate gradients?
The weight of me (9st 10) and a pannier full of shopping, peddeling up an hill at (20%) 1.4 was being a bit too optimistic. I couldnt do these hills on my old electric bike, I would peddle until my legs ached. So i do worry that using the steephills isnt helping the life of the battery, i know when i see the red light that the battery isnt finished, but it tends to be much slower when im back to the flat roads. What I sometimes do is walk the bike up the worst bits gently pressing the throttle.
Anyway, I think in some ways you get more out of NiMh battery, longer life span, and although im not going long distance, the hill climbing is making up for that.
So the F series with NiMh battery would be an great choice.

 

[flecc]

Working out gradients from maps isn't easy Gaynor, and is unreliable unless it's a very large scale contour map. Best done with an inclinometer.

The Forza has a very powerful motor with corresponding high battery drain on hill climbing at full power, so even an NiMh could get a bit hot, and would spend much of the time on red light as they are slightly lower voltage.

You'll always get the red light on tough hill climbs with Li-ion, and it does leave the battery a bit lower on power afterwards, but this isn't permanent,they recover from that ok.

To be honest, lots of hill climbing at 20% or steeper isn't really electric bike territory, those generally designed with half that in mind. We are lucky in having the more powerful eZee models which can tackle them with rider help, but even they have their limits.
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