Let's pretend we are driving a proper car.

oyster · Dec 9, 2022

Zlatan said:
Lexus in development of a manual transmission for electric cars | Evo

Sounds like an oxymoron doesn’t it? But this is more ‘virtual combustion powertrain’ than just a fake gear stick…

www.evo.co.uk

What on earth is this about. We could program it to recreate double declutchinng for none Syncro boxes. Or even supply it with a dummy starting handle for "pretending" to start it on cold mornings.
Modrrn generation like to think they accept new technology. Nonsense, they are stuck in 1990s. I loved my old 2 stroke Cotton, my MG Midget (circa 1968) but time moves on. Leave the old stuff where it belongs. In the past. Can't compare old MG with tiptronic boxster. Yes, I love changing gear but only if it's for a reason and is real. It's child like. Let's pretend to change gear and make silly noises whilst we do it. Bonkers.

I'm trying to imagine someone who learned to drive on an EV, and has never driven any non-auto ICE, being confronted by this!

flecc · Dec 9, 2022

Zlatan said:
Lexus in development of a manual transmission for electric cars | Evo

Sounds like an oxymoron doesn’t it? But this is more ‘virtual combustion powertrain’ than just a fake gear stick…

www.evo.co.uk

What on earth is this about. We could program it to recreate double declutchinng for none Syncro boxes. Or even supply it with a dummy starting handle for "pretending" to start it on cold mornings.
Modrrn generation like to think they accept new technology. Nonsense, they are stuck in 1990s. I loved my old 2 stroke Cotton, my MG Midget (circa 1968) but time moves on. Leave the old stuff where it belongs. In the past. Can't compare old MG with tiptronic boxster. Yes, I love changing gear but only if it's for a reason and is real. It's child like. Let's pretend to change gear and make silly noises whilst we do it. Bonkers.

Total madness, but typical of Toyota in this new age.

They've stubbornly stuck to non-plug-in cars calling them self charging hybrids when they are neither. They have only one fuel, petrol, so they are not hybrid since any current is regenerated from previous petrol drive effort. And claiming self charging is equivalent to perpetual motion, not possible.

The truth is they resented true BEVs and Hybrids taking the publicity from their so called hybrids so have fallen far behind in development and are trying to defend the indefensible.

This idiocy smacks of desperation. Will anyone buy a car which could subject them to ridicule? I doubt it.
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Benjahmin · Dec 10, 2022

I agree, this is madness.
Why make, what is essentially a simple drive train, more complex, so adding greater fault liability and increasing servicing costs?
And the mention of 'steer by wire' is truly frightening.
What could possibly go wrong?

oyster · Dec 10, 2022

Can't help myself making another comment.

One of the cars I drive has a dual-clutch gear system. And paddles on the steering wheel you can use to force a gear change.

The widespread opinion seems to be that people like that option. At least in principle. But in the real world, drivers never - or almost never - use the paddles. (Bear in mind, it was widely used on higher performance cars so that drivers could pretend it was a manual gearbox. Occasionally gaining a bit of performance. And allowing show-off behaviour.)

It is a brain-jar to go from thinking that the gearbox will handle it all to having to make gear-change decisions.

I can imagine this synthesised noise being unbearable. Who actually wants engine noise to blot out their choice of music or radio?

We have already gone through many years of increasing gearbox intelligence. The first auto I drove was reasonable at being encouraged to change gear just by accelerator pressure. (Not the kick-down - you could sometimes do a double-shift down when the gearbox decided to change down and then you also hit the kick-down switch.)

How many of us are actually better at choosing gear than a modern, sophisticated gearbox? Why, with adaptive cruise control the car beats me pants down at choosing optimal combinations of gear and brake when doing downhill.

oyster · Dec 10, 2022

Zlatan said:
I agree with post in general but having had a paddle shift/auto for 5 years or so I have to say its now my preferred choice.
I have system set so that I change gear with paddles but if I don't feel like it I can leave system to do it. I don't think we will ever reach a point where gearbox can pre empt your actions. For instance, if I decide to overtake, shift down ready to do so. If I attempt to do so without flicking paddle engine has to sense increased load and then react. Definitely slower than using paddles. Same applies approaching bends, roundabouts etc.
And, I, m fairly sure I can get a few more mpg with me deciding gear change points than car.
I use paddles for 95% of my driving. (It's 8 speed auto, with torque converter, not dual clutch) Brilliant system.. But not having to change gear at all.. ie) electric.. would be better.

Mine is 7 speed.

If I want to achieve extra oommph, I tend to flick the gear lever and switch to so-called Sports mode. (That's on top of four overall choices of setting.)

But I rarely overtake. Most of the time, it simply isn't worth it. Often the roads don't give sufficient visibility. All too often, the vehicle I might want to overtake turns off quite soon. Or there is another just up ahead so the gain is nothing.

Also, manually choosing gear prevents that possibility of coasting. Which the system choose for itself under some circumstances. And that minimises fuel consumption.

A year or two ago, I was driving at about 50 coming out of a corner, which seemed reasonable to me, and was about to speed up to just under 60. The Jag following decided it wasn't. So pulled out and overtook.

Unfortunately for him, a car coming in from a side road on the right started to move. Just caught his rear bumper which flew across the road. The Jag did stop and go back. But it was pretty forseeable if you know the road. And if you don't, it isn't safe to overtake there!

snafu · Dec 10, 2022

Formula E cars have gears. (Up to 5). Just sayin.....

TTFN
John.

flecc · Dec 10, 2022

snafu said:
Formula E cars have gears. (Up to 5). Just sayin.....

TTFN
John.

Indeed, and so do the new large load capacity e-trucks, but of course both are for highly specialised uses where gears can confer an advantage.

For road going cars they are ridiculous and unnecessary, whether actual or simulated.
.

guerney · Dec 10, 2022

If they turn ou to be unpopular...they're only 5 switches, which could be remapped in firmware to trigger anything else in the car, such as changing between TV channels, increasing levels of seat massage vibration, lowering the suspension in 5 increments , selecting missiles of the car defence system etc.

snafu · Dec 11, 2022

flecc said:
Indeed, and so do the new large load capacity e-trucks, but of course both are for highly specialised uses where gears can confer an advantage.

For road going cars they are ridiculous and unnecessary, whether actual or simulated.
.

Of course I completely agree with you, but I guess in the grand scheme of things anything which can demonstrate range extension. (Much like Regenerative Braking) is a selling point. In fairness range anxiety isn't the issue nowadays it's the charging infrastructure. I could manage for 90% of the year with an EV. But my trips to the Scottish Highlands where it's 75 miles to the nearest charging point means I'm sceptical of everything EV (At least for me) at the moment.

Obviously it's nothing like the gains related to the operating envelope of an ICE engine but in these days of saving the planet etc every little helps and it's is an "efficiency" area which I applaud, Every little helps.

TTFN
John

flecc · Dec 11, 2022

Zlatan said:
Selling us a load of BS. (diesel gate plus) Us all scrapping ICE cars and jumping into EVs would cost individuals a fortune, many will struggle to find an EV solution to their transport struggles and it would increase damage to environment.

It's not the motor industry this time, they were strongly opposed to EVs and were responsible for most of the original propaganda against them that is still being used by individuals now.

This time, as I explained earlier, it's governments working with the motor industry to eliminate ic cars and vans and make EVs upmarket and very expensive. That suits the industry, still making them their profits and no longer working hard to manufacture loss making small cars. What's in it for governments is greatly reducing car ownership, making it for a minority only eventually.

Private car existence has meant nothing but trouble for governments. It's at the root of nearly all crime and also makes detection far more difficult. It clogs our roads with many if not most of our 35 million cars and vans garaged on roads. It costs a fortune in road repairs. The pollution it causes from manufacture to usage and final disposal is out of control and must be stopped asap for essential climate change reasons.

So we are being gradually forced out of car ownership in many ways. Impossibly high purchase costs and running costs to reduce all car ownership. Ultra low emission and congestion zones to make use more difficult and expensive. Toll roads and bridges. Compulsory scrappage schemes for cars and vans over certain ages not meeting latest standards. Anyone who kids themselves they will be driving their ic indefinitely will be in for a shock when it gets compulsorily crushed.

You posted this:

"many will struggle to find an EV solution to their transport struggles"

The switch will be mostly to EV public transport as we've done in London. For a while now we've only been buying zero emission buses, battery for most routes, hydrogen fuel cell for the longer ones. There's the electric underground expanding with crossrail 1 and 2 and our expanding mainline electric rail. And of course the cycling program helping out to some extent.

The outcome is that London, once the area with the UK's highest car ownership now has the lowest of all. Young Londoners no longer aspire to own a car or even moped, it's far too expensive and difficult and they ride on the plentiful buses completely free anyway so why would they?

Basically it's mainly only the London wage earners in their middle years who pay fares. Up to 16, or 18 in full time education, it's free, from 60 it's free for all.

That is the future pattern for everywhere, remember 86% of our population live in cities and major towns, only 14% rural.

What I've just described is spreading fast. Many cities and even some towns are buying e-buses, road restrictions are planned or already creeping in everywhere. The government's campaign to get more cycling is well under way and car ownership costs are being made sky high and will not come down again.

Of course all this will not happen instantly, everything takes time, but it will happen far quicker than the naysayers think. In 30 to 40 years time in this country and many others in the west the pattern of life will be unrecognisable to us.

Not just the west either, China is well on the way. Their cities are only allowed to buy e-buses and clampdowns on more polluting vehicle have started.

In sociology terms, between 1900 and the present, major governments largely lost control of their populations due in no small part to the freedom of movement given by modern transport. Now they are determined to get back full control as their ever more restrictive measures on all aspects of life show very clearly.
.

jonathan.agnew · Dec 11, 2022

flecc said:
It's not the motor industry this time, they were strongly opposed to EVs and were responsible for most of the original propaganda against them that is still being used by individuals now.

This time, as I explained earlier, it's governments working with the motor industry to eliminate ic cars and vans and make EVs upmarket and very expensive. That suits the industry, still making them their profits and no longer working hard to manufacture loss making small cars. What's in it for governments is greatly reducing car ownership, making it for a minority only eventually.

Private car existence has meant nothing but trouble for governments. It's at the root of nearly all crime and also makes detection far more difficult. It clogs our roads with many if not most of our 35 million cars and vans garaged on roads. It costs a fortune in road repairs. The pollution it causes from manufacture to usage and final disposal is out of control and must be stopped asap for essential climate change reasons.

So we are being gradually forced out of car ownership in many ways. Impossibly high purchase costs and running costs to reduce all car ownership. Ultra low emission and congestion zones to make use more difficult and expensive. Toll roads and bridges. Compulsory scrappage schemes for cars and vans over certain ages not meeting latest standards. Anyone who kids themselves they will be driving their ic indefinitely will be in for a shock when it gets compulsorily crushed.

You posted this:

"many will struggle to find an EV solution to their transport struggles"

The switch will be mostly to EV public transport as we've done in London. For a while now we've only been buying zero emission buses, battery for most routes, hydrogen fuel cell for the longer ones. There's the electric underground expanding with crossrail 1 and 2 and our expanding mainline electric rail. And of course the cycling program helping out to some extent.

The outcome is that London, once the area with the UK's highest car ownership now has the lowest of all. Young Londoners no longer aspire to own a car or even moped, it's far too expensive and difficult and they ride on the plentiful buses completely free anyway so why would they?

Basically it's mainly only the London wage earners in their middle years who pay fares. Up to 16, or 18 in full time education, it's free, from 60 it's free for all.

That is the future pattern for everywhere, remember 86% of our population live in cities and major towns, only 14% rural.

What I've just described is spreading fast. Many cities and even some towns are buying e-buses, road restrictions are planned or already creeping in everywhere. The government's campaign to get more cycling is well under way and car ownership costs are being made sky high and will not come down again.

Of course all this will not happen instantly, everything takes time, but it will happen far quicker than the naysayers think. In 30 to 40 years time in this country and many others in the west the pattern of life will be unrecognisable to us.

Not just the west either, China is well on the way. Their cities are only allowed to buy e-buses and clampdowns on more polluting vehicle have started.

In sociology terms, between 1900 and the present, major governments largely lost control of their populations due in no small part to the freedom of movement given by modern transport. Now they are determined to get back full control as their ever more restrictive measures on all aspects of life show very clearly.
.

The Chinese seem to be able to make the transition without destroying middle class freedom

China’s transition to electric vehicles

China recently imposed a mandate on automakers requiring that electric vehicles (EVs) make up 40 percent of all sales by 2030. An MIT study finds the cost will be substantial.

news.mit.edu

And that's before one consider the wuling honguang
I think this a familiar tale of treasure Island Britain, where the consumer get ripped off to a tremendous level in what they pay for cars, everything really

flecc · Dec 11, 2022

jonathan.agnew said:
The Chinese seem to be able to make the transition without destroying middle class freedom

China’s transition to electric vehicles

China recently imposed a mandate on automakers requiring that electric vehicles (EVs) make up 40 percent of all sales by 2030. An MIT study finds the cost will be substantial.

news.mit.edu

And that's before one consider the wuling honguang
I think this a familiar tale of treasure Island Britain, where the consumer get ripped off to a tremendous level in what they pay for cars, everything really

As usual you left wing politicise and ignore the facts. You will never understand what is really going on until you liberate your mind of this entrenched bias. I'm as left wing as you are, but I don't let it distort my judgment.

The Chinese policy is similar to ours in some ways, but allowing for their earlier stage of modern development. They are NOT controlling the numbers manufacturers make, only a percentage which must be EV, which of course can be a percentage of less.

As for the Wuling Honguang, forget it, we control what comes in. Look what happened to cheap pedelecs. The EU added a huge tariff on the false excuse that the Chinese were dumping subsidised product, protecting their own much more expensive machines. In any case our car buying public won't buy cheap versions that reflect on their status.

Read this that I posted elsewhere:

"We have a problem with 32.7 million cars on our roads. We are never going to get 32.7 million Amis or YoYos in them, just as we never had 32.7 million Citroen 2CVs. We are never going to get 32.7 million proper e-cars costing from £35k to over £60 k on our roads. There just isn't that sort of money about in our ever poorer times nor likely to be in the forseeable future.

So the number of cars on the roads will substantially reduce over time."

That is government and even motor industry policy.
.

jonathan.agnew · Dec 11, 2022

flecc said:
As usual you left wing politicise and ignore the facts. You will never understand what is really going on until you liberate your mind of this entrenched bias. I'm as left wing as you are, but I don't let it distort my judgment.

The Chinese policy is similar to ours in some ways, but allowing for their earlier stage of modern development. They are NOT controlling the numbers manufacturers make, only a percentage which must be EV, which of course can be a percentage of less.

As for the Wuling Honguang, forget it, we control what comes in. Look what happened to cheap pedelecs. The EU added a huge tariff on the false excuse that the Chinese were dumping subsidised product, protecting their own much more expensive machines. In any case our car buying public won't buy cheap versions that reflect on their status.

Read this that I posted elsewhere:

"We have a problem with 32.7 million cars on our roads. We are never going to get 32.7 million Amis or YoYos in them, just as we never had 32.7 million Citroen 2CVs. We are never going to get 32.7 million proper e-cars costing from £35k to over £60 k on our roads. There just isn't that sort of money about in our ever poorer times nor likely to be in the forseeable future.

So the number of cars on the roads will substantially reduce over time."

That is government and even motor industry policy.
.

Not really. But you do as often make many assumptions. As my father used to say, you can take away all a man's rights, but not the right to vote with his feet. And I say that as a dual national spending ever less time in the UK.
You are describing with car ownership in the UK a symptom of a bigger problem. An increasingly unequal dysfunctional society that cannot support itself. Your example, london, is a good example. The young who use public transport not only can't afford cars, they also cannot afford housing (to rent let alone to buy). Many have multiple underpaid jobs in the gig economy.
It's not a sustainable model. Even truss would tell you that. That is the bigger picture. Not some kind of new sustainable homeostasis where everyone become menial disowned peasants

flecc · Dec 11, 2022

jonathan.agnew said:
The young who use public transport not only can't afford cars, they also cannot afford housing (to rent let alone to buy). Many have multiple underpaid jobs in the gig economy.

It's not a sustainable model.

The interim isn't sustainable but it will become much more than you think.

The real reason they cannot afford housing despite multiple jobs is the multiplicity of drains on their income.

I grew up in a Britain where the drain on income for the masses was rent, food and minimal other bills

No car, Alexa or computers, no smartphones or telephone of any sort, no TVs, no microwaves, fridges or washing machines or vacuum cleaners or electric irons or hairdryers etc, etc, etc.

Our typical home had basic essential furniture on the bare floorboards, a gas cooker, a radio quaintly called a wireless set, broom, mop, scrubbing brush.

So minimal income sufficed.

I'm not saying we will return to just that, but many will have to go a long way back along that route to both deal with climate change and all our other problems. For many the car will have to get the chop.

That is unavoidable and what you see going on now is that already happening.
.

jonathan.agnew · Dec 11, 2022

flecc said:
The interim isn't sustainable but it will become much more than you think.

The real reason they cannot afford housing despite multiple jobs is the multiplicity of drains on their income.

I grew up in a Britain where the drain on income for the masses was rent, food and minimal other bills

No car, Alexa or computers, no smartphones or telephone of any sort, no TVs, no microwaves, fridges or washing machines or vacuum cleaners or electric irons or hairdryers etc, etc, etc.

Our typical home had basic essential furniture on the bare floorboards, a gas cooker, a radio quaintly called a wireless set, broom, mop, scrubbing brush.

So minimal income sufficed.

I'm not saying we will return to just that, but many will have to go a long way back along that route to both deal with climate change and all our other problems. For many the car will have to get the chop.

That is unavoidable and what you see going on now is that already happening.
.

I grew up in the 80s, 90s in a somewhat similar bootstrap reality. But things have changed, a lot. Multiple holidays in the carribean each year is the new norm. If you were say an eighteen year old with good a levels would you a. stay in London paying exorbitant uni fees while running errands on your beat up bike for just eat before crashing in that insect infected hovel in stockwell or b. take up that reasonably priced training in medicine in Australia, new Zealand, etc before specialising in dermatology and getting a job in LA?

flecc · Dec 11, 2022

jonathan.agnew said:
I grew up in the 80s, 90s in a somewhat similar bootstrap reality. But things have changed, a lot. Multiple holidays in the carribean each year is the new norm. If you were say an eighteen year old with good a levels would you a. stay in London paying exorbitant uni fees while running errands on your beat up bike for just eat before crashing in that insect infected hovel in stockwell or b. take up that reasonably priced training in medicine in Australia, new Zealand, etc before specialising in dermatology and getting a job in LA?

The latter not an option for the majority, but you are still completely blind to what has been going on during your life.

The old reality I described continued until the 1950s, but in the 1960s we developed greed for the new. The answer came in the 1970s with the widespread distribution of credit cards. Governments were already living on credit but now the masses joined them.

From the 1970s through to the present it was how we afforded all the new stuff, constantly defering the cost or subsidising it with borrowing from grossly inflated housing values.

The warnings were all there, many losing jobs, income and homes in the recessions of 1980 and 1991, and that really hit the brick wall in 2008 when countries as well as individuals had to face up to their amassed debt.

That was the price of living far beyond our means in a false new world for several decades.

Even without climate change we cannot continue that. We have to return to living within what we really are worth in true income terms. We cannot afford that long list of all the goodies I gave, and since the car is the most expensive one and the one the government have the most control over, that is the one that large numbers will lose over time to help get us individually and as a country back into balance.

This isn't just here in Britain, it's true of almost all of Europe where governments are following the same anti-car policies. And not just in Europe, true also in parts of the Orient and South America.
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Let's pretend we are driving a proper car.

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