Let's pretend we are driving a proper car.

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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The latter not an option for the majority, but you are still completely blind to what has been going on during your life.

The old reality I described continued until the 1950s, but in the 1960s we developed greed for the new. The answer came in the 1970s with the widespread distribution of credit cards. Governments were already living on credit but now the masses joined them.

From the 1970s though to the present it was how we afforded all the new stuff, constantly defering the cost or subsidising it with borrowing from grossly inflated housing values.

The warnings were all there, many losing jobs, income and homes in the recessions of 1980 and 1991, and that really hit the brick wall in 2008 when countries as well as individuals had to face up to their amassed debt.

That was the price of living far beyond our means in a false new world for several decades.

Even without climate change we cannot continue that. We have to return to living within what we really are worth in true income terms. We cannot afford that long list of all the goodies I gave, and since the car is the most expensive one and the one the government have the most control over, that is the one that large numbers will lose over time to help get us individually and as a country back into balance.

This isn't just here in Britain, it's true of almost all of Europe where governments are following the same anti-car policies. And not just in Europe, true also in parts of the Orient and South America.
.
You make some good and valid points but I do think you miss a really important issue.
It's impossible to quantify but a massive part of our economic security is based on all our desires for individual transport.
The building of roads and vehicles to fill them fostered a massive part of our industries, and not just here in the UK. Take away transport industry, all its support and related commerce, all the jobs both directly and indirectly and I, d guess you, ve lost 60% or more of businesses.
The car, and the desire for it, gave the most of the world a route out of poverty and into rampant capitalism. It certainly has its faults but that spiral of growth initiated by transport has for a century now kept most of us fed and in work. The car is much more central to modern civilisation than your posts suggest. Take it, and the desire for it, away and I, m not sure there is enough left to keep us all. The list of industries and commerce ultimately independant of it are precious few. We dispose of it at our peril.
Imagine cowboys without horses or Easyrider without a Harley. It wouldn't work.
Rightly or wrongly the civilisation we have grown into needs "the car" and not just for transport.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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You make some good and valid points but I do think you miss a really important issue.
It's impossible to quantify but a massive part of our economic security is based on all our desires for individual transport.
The building of roads and vehicles to fill them fostered a massive part of our industries, and not just here in the UK. Take away transport industry, all its support and related commerce, all the jobs both directly and indirectly and I, d guess you, ve lost 60% or more of businesses.
The car, and the desire for it, gave the most of the world a route out of poverty and into rampant capitalism. It certainly has its faults but that spiral of growth initiated by transport has for a century now kept most of us fed and in work. The car is much more central to modern civilisation than your posts suggest. Take it, and the desire for it, away and I, m not sure there is enough left to keep us all. The list of industries and commerce ultimately independant of it are precious few. We dispose of it at our peril.
Imagine cowboys without horses or Easyrider without a Harley. It wouldn't work.
Rightly or wrongly the civilisation we have grown into needs "the car" and not just for transport.
Only all true if we are to maintain our economy as you admit.

But as I've clearly shown, it is a false economy, founded upon credit which can no longer continue. We are heading towards a much poorer economy where we'll all have to get used to less, particularly for climate change reasons,

Also your objection has gone over the top with your estimate of 60% loss of businesses. I haven't in any way said we are getting rid of cars, I've only said there will eventually be a major reduction of them on our roads, maybe halving them eventually (30 to 40 years time).

Only a few of our cars are important for business anyway, vast numbers of them are second hand low mileage often only started once or twice a week. Half all the cars in my neighbourhood are like that, standing by the kerb day after day, week after week.

And EVs are bringing a large reduction in motor trade jobs anyway since there's so little to go wrong or replace and they will last so much longer.

You, indeed all my opposition in this issue, need to make more allowance for time. Our world has changed beyond recognition in the last 70 years. It will again in the next 70 years, but this time it it won't be the false progress we've been enjoying, throwing everything away to buy new, wrecking the planet in the process.

It will be about using very much less, making it last, recycling it. And travel and transport will play a reducing part out of necessity.

Don't believe me? Just remember we once had and ran the largest empire the world has ever known, all without the vast majority of us travelling at all. We had no engines, walked to our work or for shopping where we bought locally grown or made produce.

The trends back to that have already started in small ways, but perhaps you haven't been looking closely:

The huge expansion in farm shops and farm markets selling local produce and products.

Supermarkets shutting many of their large locations and increasingly opening local branches.

The equally large expansion in the numbers of small businesses making product and selling online. No HQs, no reps, no sale manager etc.

All the people working from home either full or part time, greatly reducing travel.
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jonathan.agnew

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 27, 2018
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The latter not an option for the majority, but you are still completely blind to what has been going on during your life.

The old reality I described continued until the 1950s, but in the 1960s we developed greed for the new. The answer came in the 1970s with the widespread distribution of credit cards. Governments were already living on credit but now the masses joined them.

From the 1970s though to the present it was how we afforded all the new stuff, constantly defering the cost or subsidising it with borrowing from grossly inflated housing values.

The warnings were all there, many losing jobs, income and homes in the recessions of 1980 and 1991, and that really hit the brick wall in 2008 when countries as well as individuals had to face up to their amassed debt.

That was the price of living far beyond our means in a false new world for several decades.

Even without climate change we cannot continue that. We have to return to living within what we really are worth in true income terms. We cannot afford that long list of all the goodies I gave, and since the car is the most expensive one and the one the government have the most control over, that is the one that large numbers will lose over time to help get us individually and as a country back into balance.

This isn't just here in Britain, it's true of almost all of Europe where governments are following the same anti-car policies. And not just in Europe, true also in parts of the Orient and South America.
.
In principle, yes, and on balance a car free world would be better. But we're a voracious species of primates who compete in mindless darwinian ways. And have little consideration for the environment. And governments make revenue out of this by selling us fuel and giving politicians lucrative jobs with companies that fund these lifestyles. Take tropea or anywhere else in italy. It's impossible drive or park anywhere for the permanent logjam of cars. And I never do, instead opting for the excellent cheap new air conditioned trains with their panoramic windows. But that of course doesnt impress the jones', and being vulgar and impressing the Jones is what modern lifes all about.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
And governments make revenue out of this by selling us fuel and giving politicians lucrative jobs with companies that fund these lifestyles.
I repeat, credit money that can no longer exist.

We've hit the buffers so that journey ends. That is what 2008 and since meant.
.
 

snafu

Pedelecer
Dec 15, 2020
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Hall End, North |Warks
This seems to have rapidly drifted off the topic heading and is quickly becoming a new "Brexit for once some facts". ;)

TTFN
John.
 
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