Let's keep the throttle!

[Josh Trees]

That's true, but the legislation is based entirely on a pedelec remaining a bicycle, not creating a different class of vehicle. Hence all motive power applied by the pedals.

The law is to provide a degree of power assistance to those cycling, not to create a very low powered motorcycle.

That's why all appeals for throttles have fallen on deaf ears and why that isn't going to change no matter what evidence is produced. The EU will merely point to the alternative provisions for those who want throttles.
.

 

[Josh Trees]

Hi Flecc, I see your point, it is precisely because I love to slow down in the beautiful, car free, Scottish Borders countryside and just pedal, with no assistance, that I find the pedalec so inconvenient. My desire is to pedal more, not less, to cycle, not motorcycle. This is better achieved with the occasional use of a throttle than continual switching on and off of the pedalec. Thank you for your reply to a newbie. It appears that at the moment we can have both, each to their own, hopefully it will stay that way. All the best. J

 

[Audio2]

M

 

[Josh Trees]

Hi Everyone. How about this as a thought. Some Lambretta scooters have a foot pedal accelerator, following the logic of the anti-throttle argument they ought to be classified as cars. Really? A throttle system gives most agency to the rider, imagine a car that you can't control the speed, it just goes slow, medium or fast. e-biking, it's smiles better. enjoy. J

 

[craiggor]

As you say, the EAPC revision doesn't state anything about throttles, but it's not just Clare Perry's word we need depend on. The IVS (International Vehicle Standards) division of the DfT have made the ruling that an e-bike with a fully acting throttle will be treated as an EAPC if it is type approved and conforms in all other respects to the EAPC regulations.

Looking into that, at present type approval is impractical since the Low Powered Moped method that's in force is too harsh in it's requirements. The new L1e-A type approval that will be available after 31st December 2016 has much reduced requirements, in many things only requiring that the e-bike meets existing bicycle standards. Any good e-bike should pass L1e-A type approval without problems.

Of course the IVS ruling is a UK one which I doubt can apply elsewhere in Europe, but since they specify EAPC, that's not a problem. The EU calls them EPACs in it's laws, so the UK IVS ruling doesn't offend. Clever.
.

L1E - A Home build rules ? I'am still confused. L1E-A cycle path yes or no ? Type approval start date another post said it won't be ready till 2017. L1E-A SVA ? EAPC with a throttle SVA That's a EAPCWATSVA.?

 

[flecc]

L1E - A Home build rules ? I'am still confused. L1E-A cycle path yes or no ? Type approval start date another post said it won't be ready till 2017. L1E-A SVA ? EAPC with a throttle SVA That's a EAPCWATSVA.?

L1e-A isn't in yet, but we've always had this class, it's called the Low Powered Moped Class, same 15.6 mph assist limit but 1000 watts and throttles allowed. SVA testing for that has long been available and costs £55. But the standards for that are higher so any standard e-bike isn't good enough, it has to be upgraded in various ways.

Also no cycle path use, compulsory M/C helmet, registration and a Q class or better driving licence.

All in all not worth the effort in my view.
.

 

[craiggor]

L1e-A isn't in yet, but we've always had this class, it's called the Low Powered Moped Class, same 15.6 mph assist limit but 1000 watts and throttles allowed. SVA testing for that has long been available and costs £55. But the standards for that are higher so any standard e-bike isn't good enough, it has to be upgraded in various ways.

Also no cycle path use, compulsory M/C helmet, registration and a Q class or better driving licence.

All in all not worth the effort in my view.
.

£55 for been banned from the cycle paths.Or you could say a £55 tax for not been forced to ride in the gutter.No horn no bell ? I saw a bike on another post that had past.I would of not past it.

 

[craiggor]

£55 for been banned from the cycle paths.Or you could say a £55 tax for not been forced to ride in the gutter.No horn no bell ? I saw a bike on another post that had past.I would of not past it.

I thought a L1e - A had no need for a number plate holder in the MSVA.

 

[flecc]

I thought a L1e - A had no need for a number plate holder in the MSVA.

That was in the draft regulation, it now appears a number plate may be necessary after all, but we'll have to wait until the law is finalised to find out.
.

 

[craiggor]

That was in the draft regulation, it now appears a number plate may be necessary after all, but we'll have to wait until the law is finalised to find out.
.

Cheers.considering a L1e-1 is allowed on the road in January/ today they better hurry up.

 

[flecc]

Cheers.considering a L1e-1 is allowed on the road in January/ today they better hurry up.

A manufactured vehicle to the intended L1e regulations can be, but that type approval law isn't finalised until 1st January 2017, so they can take another year to dot the i's and t's. Also that law and it's date rulings don't apply to SVA, it's solely for manufactured vehicles.
.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Copied from a letter I received on the subject from the DfT on the 17th November...

"EAPCs that have a throttle that can be used up to a maximum of 15.5 mph will not be considered to be motor vehicles providing that the cycle has pedals that are capable of propelling it. The only change to this rule was the change from 15 mph to 15.5 mph to align with the European limit of 25 km/h.

The rule that you refer to regarding a 6 km/h limit for pedal assistance without pedalling is for the application of European Type Approval according to EU Regulation 168/2013. As described above, in the UK we will continue to consider throttle EAPCs as standard EAPCs and will not require registration, tax or insurance. However, this may be different within other EU markets.

Any throttle EAPC that is sold after 1 January 2016 will need either MSVA or European Whole Vehicle Type Approval to 168/2013."

There currently is no classification for an EAPC as per the first paragraph, therefore it is impossible to comply with the new law. Does this make the law unenforceable?

The closest as correctly pointed out is L1e-A.

However as Flecc has pointed out, an L1e-A powered bicycle can have a motor rated up to 1000W

And must have... Anti Lock Braking, Automatic Lighting, Light Signalling Devices, Registration Plate Space etc. etc. The rider must wear a motor cycle helmet and have a driving licence.

It cannot be ridden on a cycle path.

Does the second statement mean that all Bosch, Yamaha etc. powered bikes that have a 6kph walk along throttle or button also need to be Type Approved to 168/2013? Based on the above letter, in my opinion they are no different to a bike with a full throttle.

Confused?

For further "clarification" please see:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2013:060:0052:0128:EN:PDF

I have responded and will report back.

All the best

David

 

[craiggor]

Cheers david,that's the link I can't get to.I will Google it.Reason for all this is I like to build my own,with throttle.And to do this from next year as far as I can make out I can't until they sort it.I have also built a bike this year and if I ever get stopped how do I prove when I built it.The L1e-A seems the only way for me to get a bit of paper with the proof of what it is. Craig.

 

[craiggor]

Cheers david,that's the link I can't get to.I will Google it.Reason for all this is I like to build my own,with throttle.And to do this from next year as far as I can make out I can't until they sort it.I have also built a bike this year and if I ever get stopped how do I prove when I built it.The L1e-A seems the only way for me to get a bit of paper with the proof of what it is. Craig.

P.s. Anti lock braking ?????? Steering must be able to lock in the turned position.rear brake light,E marked tyres,one big mirror,+/- 5% on the 15.5 mph.even pedelecs can have 10%.What is a L1e-A supposed to be where they are S- pedelecs and they got the speed wrong.Or are they just old fashioned cycle motors and some trouble maker at the house of Lords thought he would have a laugh by saying 1000 watts..

 

[flecc]

Does the second statement mean that all Bosch, Yamaha etc. powered bikes that have a 6kph walk along throttle or button also need to be Type Approved to 168/2013? Based on the above letter, in my opinion they are no different to a bike with a full throttle.

No David, that usage falls into the pedestrian controlled vehicle legislation. That specifies a maximum speed of 4 mph (6kph in the EU, which is 3.6 mph) and the power must only be there when held on by the pedestrian. Hence the thumb throttle. There is a weight limit of 400 kilos, which hopefully shouldn't trouble us, and there is a group K driving licence for heavy ones.

It follows as I've mentioned previously that using the thumb throttle to set off while on board the bike is illegal*, it's only for walk-alongside. It's even illegal to use it with a foot on a pedal, scooting, and this had been ruled upon in a bicycle test case.

There is no specific pedestrian e-vehicle control law, it's incorporated into other laws, as you'll see from the paragraph I quote from when Lord Chesham was moving the measure through the House of Lords in 1963:

LORD CHESHAM

My Lords, I beg to move that the Pedestrian Controlled Vehicles Regulations 1963, dated May 9, 1963, a copy of which was laid before this House on May 14, 1963, be approved. These Regulations are made under Section 10(5)(b) of the Road Transport Lighting Act, 1957, and Section 254 of the Road Traffic Act, 1960, which give my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport power to specify mechanically propelled vehicles which shall be treated as not being motor vehicles for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act, except Part IV of it, and as being hand-propelled for the purposes of the Road Transport Lighting Act.

*EU now, in the UK from 1st January 2016
.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Thanks Flecc, so they are saying it is legal to have the "walk along' button/throttle on a bike, but use by the rider if they are actually riding the bike is illegal?

Thanks again for clearing that point up. Mobility scooters fall into a different set of rules again.

All the best

David

 

[flecc]

Thanks Flecc, so they are saying it is legal to have the "walk along' button/throttle on a bike, but use by the rider if they are actually riding the bike is illegal?

That's it exactly David. As you know the e-bike regulations new or old say nothing about walk-alongside throttles, they are only accidentally legal due to the 1963 Pedestrian Controlled Vehicle legislation.

It was BikeTech who make the Flyer e-bikes in Switzerland who appear to have twigged this use of the equivalent European walk-along vehicle laws long ago when they adapted the old Panasonic crank unit that their bike used to provide this facility. Panasonic obviously thought that good idea since they later adopted it as an option on later old units and the new units. Their optional throttle does have one inherent problem though, on the S class version it drives to 12 mph, more run-alongside than walk!
.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Their optional throttle does have one inherent problem though, on the S class version it drives to 12 mph, more run-alongside than walk!
.

I think that's one of the requirements of an sClass bikes isn't it?.. its the same with the Bosch ones, the walk assist essentially becomes a throttle up to a certain speed.

 

[flecc]

I think that's one of the requirements of an sClass bikes isn't it?.. its the same with the Bosch ones, the walk assist essentially becomes a throttle up to a certain speed.

Not that I'm aware of, and I couldn't see the point of that limit if throttles are permitted at any speed, as they are on the S class. It was an accidental outcome on the Panasonic units if fitted to an S class unit it wasn't intended for, even on the old units when BikeTech first introduced it.

Since the Bosch units appear to use the same pedelec bypass dodge to provide the walk-alongside throttle, I could well understand the same happening. In any case the throttle alone when using this method is little use up to12 mph since the power is minimal with the torque sensor not operating, so losing one of the throttle advantages.
.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Not that I'm aware of, and I couldn't see the point of that limit if throttles are permitted at any speed, as they are on the S class. It was an accidental outcome on the Panasonic units if fitted to an S class unit it wasn't intended for, even on the old units when BikeTech first introduced it.

Since the Bosch units appear to use the same pedelec bypass dodge to provide the walk-alongside throttle, I could well understand the same happening. In any case the throttle alone when using this method is little use up to12 mph since the power is minimal with the torque sensor not operating, so losing one of the throttle advantages.
.

I was told that sPedelecs had to have a throttle capable of a certain speed, which is why Bosch make their walk assist button the throttle on the sPedelec bikes, and just up the limit on it. I was told this at the Bosch training, but I can't find it in writing anywhere... I'll have a look.