Let's keep the throttle!

[Deleted member 4366]

There's nothing to stop you using a throttle. The only rule is that the power has to stop when you stop pedalling.

I made a crank-drive bike, where the motor turned the crank without a freewheel on it. I couldn't use a pedal sensor because it would have run until the battery went flat, so I had only a throttle. When you opened the throtle with your feet on the pedals, the motor made your feet go round. My understanding is that that system would be legal since the motor was stopped when your feet stopped.

 

[flecc]

then why not go straight for the 'S' type approval?
just change the battery on the BPM bikes for a 48V - cost is same as of now.

We can't without the government introducing the necessary legislation, and the DfT seem set against it.
.

 

[flecc]

There's nothing to stop you using a throttle. The only rule is that the power has to stop when you stop pedalling.

That's how my two 2006 eZee bikes operated when switched into pedelec mode, fully working throttle but only while the pedals were turning. They were EU legal since that's how they were sent into that market.
.

 

[trex]

the Woosh Gallego's throttle works like that too. You have to keep pedalling a little for the throttle to work.

 

[mike killay]

the Woosh Gallego's throttle works like that too. You have to keep pedalling a little for the throttle to work.

That is possibly the answer!
Underpedalling.
You have a normal throttle that only works as long as the pedals are turned, no matter how slowly.
Stop pedalling and assistance stops,
Get really knackered and turn the pedals slowly and run on throttle.
Members like Old Tom who do not consider this cycling can buy other bikes without the system.

 

[Josh Trees]

Shouldn't the pro-throttle argument be that it is safer. The better the control of the bike the safer it is. Continually turning a class A bike on and off to cycle without power, plus the delay on rotation provides far less control. Legislation ought to be evidence based (dream on). What is required here is organised lobbying and data collection from the real experts, e-bike riders.

 

[oldtom]

Members like Old Tom who do not consider this cycling can buy other bikes without the system.

I'm bound to say Mike, I find your comment somewhat disdainful and certainly unnecessary. I thought I explained clearly in post #56 how I view throttles on EAPCs and how I cope without one.

As it happens, no hill has ever defeated me on my Xion-powered PC although I have had that experience on other EAPCs. For a registered disabled person, I take some pride in coping as normally as I can.

I'm not sure why so many people in the UK insist a throttle is essential to their particular need. EAPCs provide most people who might otherwise struggle to ride a bike with the means to do so more easily. That, surely, is the ethos, spirit and raison d'être of electrically assisted cycling. They were never meant, I would contend, to function in the manner of a moped.

You should have noted my statement about my intention, should I find in the future that I can no longer manage to do do what I want to do on my EAPCs. I will certainly never become an advocate or champion for throttles and I get rather cross with those who seem to believe the relative regulations should be tailored to suit them, or that they should be free to ignore those rules with impunity. The laws and regulations are there and I respect all of them and I never break speed limits in my car which some find important to throw into these discussions.

Tom

 

[Jimod]

That is possibly the answer!
Underpedalling.
You have a normal throttle that only works as long as the pedals are turned, no matter how slowly.
Stop pedalling and assistance stops,
Get really knackered and turn the pedals slowly and run on throttle.
Members like Old Tom who do not consider this cycling can buy other bikes without the system.

If your bike has a pedal sensor it will give full power when you turn the pedals slowly, so if you're able to turn the pedals you don't really need the throttle.
Some people though, are unable to turn the pedals so need a throttle. If some old guy doesn't want a throttle that's fine, it's his choice. I just can't understand why any old Tom, Dick or Harry wants to ban others from enjoying going out on their bike.

 

[torrent99]

I'm not sure why so many people in the UK insist a throttle is essential to their particular need.
Tom

I suppose we see an opportunity, we have tasted a device that for some can provide a level of mobility that wasn't so easily possible (& affordable) before. (& without the stigma, limitations & cost of some of the official disabled devices) The review of the legislation offered a possibility to get this "new" invention "unshackled" from the bounds of type approval.

(& for me throttle becomes "essential" when my knees are irritated simply by turning the pedals. I have arthritis of the knee caps which means simply bending my knees can irritate the cartilage. Being able to use the throttle means I can get around further distances without having to get in the car)

Imagine we were living around the time ordinary bicycles were just becoming popular, you too would be a bit peeved if the government suddenly insisted on lots of extra paper work and checks wouldn't you? Wouldn't it seem even a little bit like this amazing invention was being shackled just as it was showing it's potential?

For myself I have found that a throttle controlled bike has enabled me to regain some of the freedom I used to enjoy as a cyclist. I'm only 44 and I miss it.

I will probably (grudgingly) be one of those who submits their bike for type approval once it is available...

 

[flecc]

Shouldn't the pro-throttle argument be that it is safer. The better the control of the bike the safer it is. Continually turning a class A bike on and off to cycle without power, plus the delay on rotation provides far less control.

That's true, but the legislation is based entirely on a pedelec remaining a bicycle, not creating a different class of vehicle. Hence all motive power applied by the pedals.

The law is to provide a degree of power assistance to those cycling, not to create a very low powered motorcycle.

That's why all appeals for throttles have fallen on deaf ears and why that isn't going to change no matter what evidence is produced. The EU will merely point to the alternative provisions for those who want throttles.
.

 

[torrent99]

That's true, but the legislation is based entirely on a pedelec remaining a bicycle, not creating a different class of vehicle. Hence all motive power applied by the pedals.

The law is to provide a degree of power assistance to those cycling, not to create a very low powered motorcycle.

.

Indeed that's where the "argument" lies, those who stand by the definition of cycling above, and those (including myself) who believe it should be "stretched" a little to include the 250W pedelec with throttle control.

Probably more useful in the long term though is to create an entirely new class of low powered vehicle, with similar freedoms enjoyed by the bicycle, to include some more of the low powered vehicle types that are being invented with todays compact motor and battery technology. Hopefully, some of these nascent technologies will survive their legal no-mans land (well default to being classed as motor vehicles with possibly hard to reach standards) to become fully realised. We are lucky that at least in the UK the low powered throttle bike is going to enjoy some legal freedoms. (& we hope the new l1e-a type will be sufficiently flexible to include non-bike shaped options too!)

In the move to "greener", more social transport it helps to have options.

 

[anotherkiwi]

My dream. Not an ICE but a HPVelotechnik Gekko. A couple of 48V20Ah batteries in the hard cases for LOOOONG range cruising. A pinion gear box on the front and a "legal" 250W hub motor in the back wheel. Maybe not the nose...

 

[jonathan75]

This issue comes up frequently and I am always left to wonder how people on mainland Europe manage. Perhaps only the able-bodied ride EAPCs in all those countries?

Tom

I think these sorts of things were popular, although not sure you can still get them.

 

[flecc]

Probably more useful in the long term though is to create an entirely new class of low powered vehicle

Of course the EU feel they've done that now with the forthcoming 25 kph L1e-A class. They've recognised that without always pedalling 250 watts won't be sufficient (absolutely true) so allow that class to have 1000 watts. But that brings with it a small degree of extra legal restriction, mainly type approval to ensure that more powerful bike will be safe.

I think that's very reasonable, especially now that they've decided that if there's pedals fitted, the group Q driving licence for L1e-A will not be required.
.

 

[shemozzle999]

The L1e-A class is intended for commercial vehicles hence the requirement of the 1kW limit and because of the additional power quite rightly under control of the regulations.

Attaching our EAPC exemption to the EU regulation means that it lies inside that regulation only being allowed while the individual member States have the freedom to set its own legislation.

It is mentioned that there may be a future review and there may be a requirement to bring that power inside the EU ruling and create a universal legislation for all member States, if that happens I believe our lonely voice will again be ignored.

This is why I feel that it is essential the EPAC exemption should be altered to include throttles now, as they do not effect safety, improve usage, allow all EU citizens access and promote to the maximum the take up of this eco friendly device.

The added bonus would be they would be outside the regulations by means of exemption and any threat of any future granting of the EU to set legislation, therefore I agree with the OP sentiments.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Throttles ARE legal all over the EU but limited to 6 kph so basically useless to anyone but the disabled. They permit "takeoff" for a (slightly) disabled person who doesn't have to balance during that first "both feet off the ground moment". Then just turning the pedals without applying any force will suffice to get you up to 25 kph. They are also legal in some EU countries if they only apply power when the pedals are turning. If you take away the need for pedals (add a throttle) the vehicle is no longer a pedelec but rather a low powered electric scooter (mopeds have pedals).

My thoughts are:
If you can't just turn the pedals without applying any force whatsoever are you a public danger on a bicycle?
Are your knees strong enough to hold you up when you come to a stop?
How do you handle an emergency situation with knees so bad that you can't turn pedals on their axle?

These may well be the very thoughts that inspired the "no throttle" clause for pedelec regulations. Ability to stand on ones feet, turn pedals and balance correctly are the basics of bicycle riding.

Allowing a throttle on a trike or quadricycle pedelec is a completely different kettle of fish - they can be assimilated with other means of transport for the disabled. But then why keep the pedals?

 

[flecc]

The L1e-A class is intended for commercial vehicles

Not entirely though, since it replaces the existing EU wide 1000 watt Low Powered Moped class which is also for pedalled bicycle based machines.
.

 

[flecc]

My thoughts are:
If you can't just turn the pedals without applying any force whatsoever are you a public danger on a bicycle?
Are your knees strong enough to hold you up when you come to a stop?
How do you handle an emergency situation with knees so bad that you can't turn pedals on their axle?

These may well be the very thoughts that inspired the "no throttle" clause for pedelec regulations. Ability to stand on ones feet, turn pedals and balance correctly are the basics of bicycle riding.

And here's some evidence for what you've said. My ex club-cyclist brother has an arthritis damaged knee which was increasingly troubling him when cycling. Stopping at a junction one day and trying to put that leg down, the knee locked at an angle and he fell over sideways, leaving him helpless on his side in the middle of the road.

That's when he gave up cycling, the risks were too great.
.

 

[torrent99]

My thoughts are:
If you can't just turn the pedals without applying any force whatsoever are you a public danger on a bicycle?
Are your knees strong enough to hold you up when you come to a stop?
How do you handle an emergency situation with knees so bad that you can't turn pedals on their axle?

In my case:
1)No. (I can apply force when I need to it just hurts)
2)Easily, I can do most walking.
3)I can do so, it just hurts.

Basically for me, large forces e.g. starting off on a hill, hurt.
During flare ups repeated bending hurts, and pedalling will irritate my knees so that they hurt 24x7 for several days. However, if I NEED to pedal hard to get out of a sticky situation I can grit my teeth and just do it.
No I am not a public danger. ( At least for that reason ;-) )

Basically electric bike with or without pedals, are heavy unwieldy things when you aren't sitting on them, they DO require a certain amount of strength & coordination simply to get out of the garage/shed etc and on the road. Someone without that strength and coordination wouldn't consider getting on one in the first place!

There are many conditions that can put someone in the not functioning 100% but not officially disabled category. Throttle bikes can help them bridge the capability gap into a healthy, green and sociable activity.

Think of them like a walking stick. You wouldn't turn round to someone and say "No sorry, if you can't walk without that stick you shouldn't be walking at all" would you?
"People who can't walk without a stick are a public danger on the footpath".

As regards emergency situations, I'm sure there are could be situations where the throttle won't get you out of them, However, there are also many such situations where even the fittest of cyclist can't pedal their way out of them either! You cycle to the limits of your (or your bikes) ability.

 

[torrent99]

And here's some evidence for what you've said. My ex club-cyclist brother has an arthritis damaged knee which was increasingly troubling him when cycling. Stopping at a junction one day and trying to put that leg down, the knee locked at an angle and he fell over sideways, leaving him helpless on his side in the middle of the road.

That's when he gave up cycling, the risks were too great.
.

Exactly, HE gave up cycling. HE made the assessment. HE made the choice. It wasn't forced upon him. Or should we have a fitness test before you can purchase a bike?

The "good" thing about cycling is that it can make you acutely aware of how fragile you are. (Unlike cars where you are cocooned in a steel box.) Many perfectly fit people choose not to cycle because of the perceived danger. I'm sure those who's condition makes them unsuitable for cycling will likely do the same.