Let's keep the throttle!

[flecc]

I have been enjoying the good weather of late and made several visits to Willen Lake in Milton Keynes.

There has been a fair on for the school kids and it has been very busy with parents and toddlers.

My throttle and brake cut out switches have come to the fore allowing me to maintain full hand control and safely negotiate around them, something you can't do with a torque sensor as there are no brake cut out switches, the only option being is to switch off the assistance.

This is the most dangerous argument for throttles that I've ever seen!

Basically you are saying that a bicycle is dangerous in the presence of pedestrians, since all bicycle control of power is though the pedals.

That has two implications:

First that all shared use paths should be discontinued with bicycles banned from them.

Second that if the problem is unique to e-bikes due to the power, then the power allowed at present is excessive and should be reduced to meet the requirement that they remain unregulated as bicycles.
.

 

[Croxden]

They asked me about throttles, I said it was for lazy people, don't let them have it.

 

[flecc]

RE: Type approval why are throttle bikes called out as requiring type approval and non-throttle bikes not?

They aren't, the EU says nothing whatsoever about throttles.

This situation arises since a pedelec is defined amongst other things as having assist power being controlled by the pedals. The reason is to keep them as close as possible to being normal bikes so that they don't have to have regulation of users.

Clearly a throttle controlled bike doesn't comply.

So faced with users asking for throttles, the DfT looked for a solution to please them. The only way to do that meant to borrow from the forthcoming L1e-A class of moped regulation for the UK. Basically they are making a local UK rule that if we meet the requirement for type appoval as L1e-A they will still say that the e-bike is a pedelec, bending the rules which they can do.

The awkwardness is due to the division of usage and supply in EU law. Usage is to a fair extent under the control of national governments so ours can say how we use a pedelec. But for someone to supply a pedelec and say it's a pedelec (EAPC) to sell it, it has to have power controlled by the pedals, and our government cannot rule any different.
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[trex]

what is the legal position of the owner who purchases a thumb throttle on ebay and fits it to his legal e-bike? can he be fined and how much?

 

[flecc]

what is the legal position of the owner who purchases a thumb throttle on ebay and fits it to his legal e-bike? can he be fined and how much?

They are liable for all the penalties applicable to using a non-type approved, unregistered, unlicenced, uninsured motor vehicle, and possibly without an appropriate driving licence*.

The total financial penalties could be costly and penalty points for being uninsured will be applied to any present or future driving licence.

That's with the present laws of course. The same may or may not apply after 31st December 2016, since the DfT may have further regularised their ruling on type approval by then which could reduce the scale of possible charges.

* Possibly because they may already have an appropriate licence or be exempted by the licence age.
.

 

[shemozzle999]

This is the most dangerous argument for throttles that I've ever seen!

Basically you are saying that a bicycle is dangerous in the presence of pedestrians, since all bicycle control of power is though the pedals.

That has two implications:

First that all shared use paths should be discontinued with bicycles banned from them.

Second that if the problem is unique to e-bikes due to the power, then the power allowed at present is excessive and should be reduced to meet the requirement that they remain unregulated as bicycles.
.

Yes, I am saying that my approved Wisper 705E with an LED controller that can not be easily derestricted to exceed 15mph is blessed with throttle control and if used responsibly is easier to control in the situation I described than being fitted with a torque sensor just to fulfill the semantics of what is perceived to be a bicycle, which once fitted with a motor it clearly isn't.

 

[oldtom]

This issue comes up frequently and I am always left to wonder how people on mainland Europe manage. Perhaps only the able-bodied ride EAPCs in all those countries?

Tom

 

[trex]

...
Perhaps only the able-bodied ride EAPCs in all those countries?

Tom

yes.
I have also never seen as many mobility scooters anywhere else in the world than in England.

 

[flecc]

Yes, I am saying that my approved Wisper 705E with an LED controller that can not be easily derestricted to exceed 15mph is blessed with throttle control and if used responsibly is easier to control in the situation I described than being fitted with a torque sensor.

I'm not arguing with your contention, having owned both types at the same time over years I know what you say about better control in some circumstances is perfectly true.

But as I said, it's politically a very dangerous argument since it's inadvertantly inviting more restrictions as described, so best an argument not made. It's just the sort of thing that ROSPA and the Nanny State administrators love to seize upon.

to fulfill the semantics of what is perceived to be a bicycle, which once fitted with a motor it clearly isn't.

Here I don't agree, augmenting or improving a riders effort has many forms and they don't change the nature of a bicycle if it remains a pedelec.
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[Jimod]

This issue comes up frequently and I am always left to wonder how people on mainland Europe manage. Perhaps only the able-bodied ride EAPCs in all those countries?

Tom

I see you're still on your anti disabled trip. It's quite easy how the disabled people on mainland Europe manage, they don't ride ebikes. The fact that YOU don't want a throttle does NOT give you the right to dictate to the rest of us.

 

[mike killay]

I really do not see what all the fuss is about.
The Chinese will still make throttles, also controllers with a port for a throttle.
UK vendors will simply sell Chinese bikes without throttles, then Ebay to the rescue.

 

[flecc]

I really do not see what all the fuss is about.

Indeed, the whole discussion is premature anyway. It's still ok to sell and use full throttle e-bikes at present during the permitted period for clearing stocks which still has very many months left.

And the the new type approval isn't even possible until after 31st December 2016 when the new law comes into force.

In such a muddled situation, could there be any police officer in the land with any idea of what is legal and when?

I think not.
.

 

[oldtom]

I see you're still on your anti disabled trip. It's quite easy how the disabled people on mainland Europe manage, they don't ride ebikes. The fact that YOU don't want a throttle does NOT give you the right to dictate to the rest of us.

I'm afraid I can't see anything in my post, #27, that could have possibly irked you to respond in such an unpleasant manner. However, it's a free country and if you want to use capital letters in an internet forum post, then you're free to so do.

Tom

 

[eBoy]

Evening, Throttle Jockeys - and Sensor Jockeys, too, of course!

It seems the natural thing to do - pedalling on a bike. Whilst owning my little folder for three to four years, I must have got a bit fitter, as I pedal virtually all the time, and on only one dot of power till a hill rears its head! But I really would miss the throttle; it's so nice to take a break every so often and just glide along for a spell, being pulled along silently by those magnets. A basic human right, and it will be there if my knees go AWOL. LOL!

Gawd bless the throttle - and we throttle jockeys, every one of us!


JOKETIME! Head for Heathrow and catch a flight to Dallas Forth Worth Airport. Then take the US287 highway for 299 miles, coming off the ramp and heading along Interstate 40 West for 7.8 miles. This is the way to Amarillo.

Johnny

 

[Jimod]

I'm afraid I can't see anything in my post, #27, that could have possibly irked you to respond in such an unpleasant manner. However, it's a free country and if you want to use capital letters in an internet forum post, then you're free to so do.

Tom

You obviously missed the word 'still' in my post. You've been at it for more than a year.

 

[shemozzle999]

I'm not arguing with your contention, having owned both types at the same time over years I know what you say about better control in some circumstances is perfectly true.

But as I said, it's politically a very dangerous argument since it's inadvertantly inviting more restrictions as described, so best an argument not made. It's just the sort of thing that ROSPA and the Nanny State administrators love to seize upon.



Here I don't agree, augmenting or improving a riders effort has many forms and they don't change the nature of a bicycle if it remains a pedelec.
.

It is not my light hearted account of my rides (read very dangerous argument), justifying the OP's title for a throttle being fitted to a 15.5mph EAPC inviting more restrictions, as it has no increased safety implications that I can think of and unlikely of interest to ROSPA

More likely that the electric bicycle industry's need to extend into the commercial area of the moped industry with the powered cycle and the moped (S pedelec) L1e classes sparking the debates and opposition from the moped manufactures, ROSPA and the EU Commission (read Nanny State administrators) rightly lending their voices in the consultations for the revised L1e regulations, due to the increased power and speeds involved.

They are not seen as Pedelecs and a have be newly described in the Regulations.

This no doubt influenced the Commissions rejection of the UK appeal for throttles to remain allowed on EAPCs although I have not been able to find any published Commission text on the justification of this decision.

It is a shame that throttle EAPCs and the advantages it would have brought to future disadvantaged riders have been tarred with the brush as the new classes.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

This no doubt influenced the Commissions rejection of the UK appeal for throttles to remain allowed on EAPCs although I have not been able to find any published Commission text on the justification of this decision.

It is a shame that throttle EAPCs and the advantages it would have brought to future disadvantaged riders have been tarred with the brush as the new classes.

Just two quick points / questions.

1) we're talking about PEDELECS... so it was only right that bikes that can be powered by a throttle aren't covered in this category and need their own subclass... which with type approval allows them to be covered within this class.

This seems fair enough doesn't it?

2) what makes you think the Commission rejected an appeal to keep throttles on Pedelecs? Its highly possible the UK set out the system that we've been given, and this was approved - allowing the UK to be the only country in Europe where people can ride throttle powered eBikes without them being classed as full mopeds. I've not seen any evidence that anything was applied for or rejected?

 

[shemozzle999]

Just two quick points / questions.

1) we're talking about PEDELECS... so it was only right that bikes that can be powered by a throttle aren't covered in this category and need their own subclass... which with type approval allows them to be covered within this class.

This seems fair enough doesn't it?

2) what makes you think the Commission rejected an appeal to keep throttles on Pedelecs? Its highly possible the UK set out the system that we've been given, and this was approved - allowing the UK to be the only country in Europe where people can ride throttle powered eBikes without them being classed as full mopeds. I've not seen any evidence that anything was applied for or rejected?

1. There is not a Pedelec class, there is an EPAC exemption defined and I believe that the requirements exclude the use of throttles by its definition although the inclusion of a throttle would have no adverse impact on safety and usage unless you know something otherwise.

2. From posts on this site from a venerable member.

the classes are powered cycles and mopeds.

 

[mike killay]

Can someone who is better at the law than me clarify,
1 Bike sellers will not be able to sell bikes with throttles unless type approved.
2 Riders on the other hand will be able to ride newly manufactured bikes that they have fitted throttles to.
Is this the case?

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Yes, thats correct.... the EPAC definition... (A for assist) by very definition excludes the use of a throttle as a means of solely powering a cycle.

And yes, it has no impact on safety, but with any vehicle class definitions its necessary to draw the line somewhere, and despite lots of debate on this over the past week on here, I'm still pretty comfortable that the line appears to have been drawn sensibly.

Especially as the UK has also been able to actually get throttles allowed to be classed a EPACs, as long as they bike has been Type Approved.

Again this seems a very sensible (even generous) solution, stopping many of the problems of people using the throttle loop hole to essentially ride motorbikes under pedelec rules. This way hopefully only the type of bikes needed by people with genuine need will get type assisted, and everyone will be a winner.

regarding your point 2. There was lots of lobbying by interested parties to support the case for a throttle, but I have seen nothing that shows any application was made for it to be included within the UK EPAC definition without any conditions.

Can someone who is better at the law than me clarify,
1 Bike sellers will not be able to sell bikes with throttles unless type approved.
2 Riders on the other hand will be able to ride newly manufactured bikes that they have fitted throttles to.
Is this the case?

1) Yes, that's correct

2) They can ride them, but you'll be breaking lots of laws... see Flec's post #25 in this thread