Legal Pitfalls

[soundwave]

The wheel size on your bike's display can be changed by a Bosch dealer, for faster speed.

no it cant as can only change it max buy 10% for different wheel sizes the gen 1 bikes you could put the magnet on the crank arm to fool the system.

on gen 2 this was fixed so had no choice bar a dongle and with gps tracking no dongles will work if they go down that road.

 

[I893469365902345609348566]

If a complete pedelec branded by the supplier as of their manufacture in law, and the limiting is not easily changed while riding, yes, entirely legal if compliant with all the other requirements of the law. It is a 250 watt machine.
.

Confusing, because the seller of the OP's bike, which he bought as a complete unit, said that his illegal bike could be limited to become legal, and you agreed with this post -

It matters not if that bike is retricted to 250w & 25km/h , it is illegal and requires registration and all the other legalities to go with it as a moped class .

 

[I893469365902345609348566]

no it cant as can only change it max buy 10% for different wheel sizes the gen 1 bikes you could put the magnet on the crank arm to fool the system.

It can be changed, so by your logic your bike can never be legal?

 

[soundwave]

the dealer can change the wheel size but it will never go above cut off speed with out a dongle.

i dont ride my bike with out a dongle never have lol.

 

[I893469365902345609348566]

the dealer can change the wheel size but it will never go above cut off speed with out a dongle.

Isn't the speed calculated using wheel size, which the dealer can change, which by the fact that controller settings can be changed as you've said, make your bike illegal? Even without the dongle.

 

[Woosh]

we have discussed this same subject over the years and there is still no general agreement.
Kits are tolerated in the EU just as much as here, in the UK. Police over there don't stop e-bikers because they have a kit, but there are anecdotes now and then that some got fined 100 Euros for using the throttle. I have not come across any in recent years but I guess if you pop into a bike shop over there and ask, they'll tell you that the throttle is illegal in the EU and they don't do kits because kits because of their professional insurance and they think that kits are not legal either. I recently popped into a couple of campuses, nearly half of the bikes there are electric and mostly with Bosch motors, so no wonder that a lot of people would happily accept the view that kits and throttle are not legal. All the cheap Chinese e-bikes that supermarkets sell have their LCD locked.
I can certainly ask Kingmeter to supply me with locked LCDs that I cannot change myself or I password protect the settings of the LCDs. I choose not to do so because my customers do not ask me to supply locked LCDs. The fact is that the Chinese controllers are not programmed for a soft cutoff encourages customers to increase the max speed to 17-18mph to avoid the shap cutoff when they reach 15.5mph. They should have been programmed with soft cutoff but they are not. Seach me, I don't have an answer for this. It's not as if it's beyond their capability. Still, I don't want to go down the OSF route because I need the guarantee from my suppliers.

 

[soundwave]

Isn't the speed calculated using wheel size, which the dealer can change, which by the fact that settings can be changed as you've said, make your bike illegal? Even without the dongle.

no because the controllers speed limit is locked there is no way for a dealer to over ride this like in the usa the speed limit is 20mph so regen locked if i imported a bike from the usa the uk dealer wont be able to change this nor will they do any warranty work to the bike either.

on shitmano motors you can get a app to regen unlock the motors for 20mph but if they find out it has been used warranty void.

you also have to set the motor angle on these fkn things as well.

at the end of the day it will go to the cps and even tho you are braking the law it wont be in the public interest prosecute.

just get pissed and get a scooter from Halfords

 

[Nealh]

There's more peace of mind with Bafangs which leave the factory engraved 250W. It seems all TSDZ2s are rated 750W and labelled by others. I'll avoid getting one, because I'd hate to get badgered by the law and insurance companies too.

More hearsay untruths.

TSDZ2B_Suzhou Tongsheng Electric Co., Ltd.,Motor,Meter,Controller (tongsheng-e.com)

TSDZ2B_Aikema Electric Drive System (Suzhou) Co., Ltd_Motors_Batteries (aikema-e.com)

No mention of 750w motors.

 

[I893469365902345609348566]

we have discussed this same subject over the years and there is still no general agreement.
Kits are tolerated in the EU just as much as here, in the UK. Police over there don't stop e-bikers because they have a kit, but there are anecdotes now and then that some got fined 100 Euros for using the throttle. I have not come across any in recent years but I guess if you pop into a bike shop over there and ask, they'll tell you that the throttle is illegal in the EU and they don't do kits because kits because of their professional insurance and they think that kits are not legal either. I recently popped into a couple of campuses, nearly half of the bikes there are electric and mostly with Bosch motors, so no wonder that a lot of people would happily accept the view that kits and throttle are not legal. All the cheap Chinese e-bikes that supermarkets sell have their LCD locked.
I can certainly ask Kingmeter to supply me with locked LCDs that I cannot change myself or I password protect the settings of the LCDs. I choose not to do so because my customers do not ask me to supply locked LCDs. The fact is that the Chinese controllers are not programmed for a soft cutoff encourages customers to increase the max speed to 17-18mph to avoid the shap cutoff when they reach 15.5mph. They should have been programmed with soft cutoff but they are not. Seach me, I don't have an answer for this. It's not as if it's beyond their capability. Still, I don't want to go down the OSF route because I need the guarantee from my suppliers.

That's quite a long paragraph which doesn't contain "TSDZ2" or it's 750W rating by the manufacturer. Spare parts are all for the same motor. As I understand it, you assemble bikes not manufacture them, rather like the OP's seller, so why does it matter what you label them as?

 

[I893469365902345609348566]

More hearsay untruths.

TSDZ2B_Suzhou Tongsheng Electric Co., Ltd.,Motor,Meter,Controller (tongsheng-e.com)

Of it's rating it says -

Rated Power

250W/350W/500W

It's the same motor and the same controller. I don't see how it can be considered legal.

 

[Bogmonster666]

This thread has been useful and I am as confident as I can be that I am a law abiding citizen, or at least taking a tolerated interpretation of the law. I can sleep easy as I have no need to change the assist level. In particular, thanks to @flecc for his patience and help.

As for no soft cutoff as @Woosh mentions, on my tsdz2 I look at it as a feature! If you power up a steep hill in turbo and then forget to change back to eco or tour then any 'assist bouncing' you get if you fall below the cutoff is quite noticeable and a good haptic feedback that it's time to reduce the assist level. The bounce isn't noticeable in the lower assist levels.

 

[flecc]

Confusing, because the seller of the OP's bike, which he bought as a complete unit, said that his illegal bike could be limited to become legal, and you agreed with this post -

Context as always matters, there is a difference between being a legal machine and legal use. The bike in question was being supplied as a 500 watt rated machine, thus supplied as illegal which could be limited by the buyer to legal usage.

Nealh was right, the supplier has stated that it is illegal as supplied so it remains illegal. The only way the buyer can make it a legal pedelec is to make the change, disable the way that is done if it's a handy switch and then present it to a Vehicle Inspectorate location for testing and approval as a pedelec.
.

 

[I893469365902345609348566]

This thread has been useful and I am as confident as I can be that I am a law abiding citizen

That's a pity, as I was hoping you'd send me your TSDZ2!

 

[I893469365902345609348566]

Context as always matters, there is a difference between being a legal machine and legal use. The bike in question was being supplied as a 500 watt rated machine, thus supplied as illegal which could be limited by the buyer to legal usage.

If the supplier ie seller made changes to limit the OP's bike to 250W with a 15.5mph cutoff, would the OP's bike -

It's a Wing brand and Flying model. It's 48 V and 1500W.

be legal?

 

[Woosh]

As I understand it, you assemble bikes not manufacture them, rather like the OP's seller, so why does it matter what you label them as?

Look at this this way: I need the warranty from Lishui, Bafang, Tongsheng, Shengyi, MXUS etc exactly like my customers need their warranty covered by me. We need to be quite clear where we stand in case of troubles. Tongsheng, Bafang, Mxus, Shengyi etc have EN15914 certifcates for their products. If I assemble from parts that are conformed, then I can infer that the bikes are conformed and can issue certificate of conformity. The same applies to whole kits. If my bike is assembled exactly with the same parts (also known as complete knocked down kit) as a bike that has gone through EN15194 test, then I can infer that the end product is conformed and can issue certificate of conformity.

 

[flecc]

Of it's rating it says -

Rated Power

250W/350W/500W

It's the same motor and the same controller. I don't see how it can be considered legal.

It can be. The Panasonic motors from 2007 on for example were superficially identical but internally tweaked for different power levels according to the pedelec manufacturers wishes. Or as with BionX, the internal controller settings being a choice.
.

 

[I893469365902345609348566]

Look at this this way: I need the warranty from Lishui, Bafang, Tongsheng, Shengyi, MXUS etc exactly like my customers need their warranty covered by me. We need to be quite clear where we stand in case of troubles. Tongsheng, Bafang, Mxus, Shengyi etc have EN15914 certifcates for their products. If I assemble from parts that are conformed, then I can infer that the bikes are conformed and can issue certificate of conformity.

From a user's point of view, my priority is not being sued for my house by some insurance company after an accident. As far as I can see, all TSDZ2 motors are rated from 250W, not 250W. Anyone else is of course free to do as they wish.

 

[soundwave]

It can be. The Panasonic motors from 2007 on for example were superficially identical but internally tweaked for different power levels according to the pedelec manufacturers wishes. Or as with BionX, the internal controller settings being a choice.
.

it is the same for bosch s class motors for 28mph both are the same parts wise it is just programming at the factory to the controllers same as bikes for usa with 20 mph.

tho in some states the walk button must be disabled as classed as a throttle

 

[I893469365902345609348566]

It can be. The Panasonic motors from 2007 on for example were superficially identical but internally tweaked for different power levels according to the pedelec manufacturers wishes. Or as with BionX, the internal controller settings being a choice.
.

Did the Panasonic motors you mention all have identical controllers? Were those hardware or software tweaks? It's the same controller in every TSDZ2, and the same motor design.

 

[flecc]

If the supplier ie seller made changes to limit the OP's bike to 250W with a 15.5mph cutoff, would the OP's bike -



be legal?

Because of all the vagaries of the law I'd need to know much more to be definitive. But the answer is almost certainly yes for the buyer in terms of legal liability, if they are unaware that it was an altered machine and sold to them as legal.

The key fact is that pedelec specification and construction are one law, while pedelec usage is another law entirely.

The two should never be mixed up in discussion. The days of the old all-in-one Construction and Use regulations are long gone.
.