Legal Pitfalls

[FastFreddy2]

Halfords in particular are being utterly cynical in my opinion, knowing owned ones are always illegal in public but obviously attempting to enforce e-scooter legality for all by swamping the roads with them to achieve a fait accompli.
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In their defence, I think Halfords, Decathlon (if they sell them), Go Outdoors (if they sell them) are selling into a market where there is a ready demand. I'm pretty sure they followed "hover-boards" in terms of interest from younger consumers. There are many practical reasons for children having access to e-scooters.

I don't know that's true of some of the high powered ones I've seen, with e-scooter users going faster than the other road traffic, as if they were riding an unregistered motorbike, which I suppose legally, they are.

 

[flecc]

In their defence, I think Halfords, Decathlon (if they sell them), Go Outdoors (if they sell them) are selling into a market where there is a ready demand. I'm pretty sure they followed "hover-boards" in terms of interest from younger consumers.

E-scooters are all unregistered motorbikes, which is just one of the reasons I am so critical of Halfords. They fully know that even if ownership is permitted, they have to be ridden on roads by holders of an appropriate driving licence with appropriate third party insurance, clearly ruling out the younger users.

There are many practical reasons for children having access to e-scooters.

Even if the law allowed them, given our very sub-standard road safety conditions and e-scooter fundamental instability, I don't think there are any practical reasons for children having access to e-scooters, however theoretically desirable and convenient that might be.
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[FastFreddy2]

Even if the law allowed them, given our very sub-standard road safety conditions and e-scooter fundamental instability, I don't think there are any practical reasons for children having access to e-scooters, however theoretically desirable and convenient that might be.
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The same could be said of ladders.

You know significantly more people are killed each year fishing, falling down stairs, falling off ladders, falling off horses, than are killed each year on scooters, whether motorised or not.

There is never a call to ban horse riding, nor ban fishing, nor ban stairs, nor ban ladders. I don't know the exact figures, but I'd be surprised if more people died on scooters, than construction workers. Should we stop building? And don't get me started on motor vehicles, which cause significantly more death than most other occupational causes combined. In fact more pedestrians are killed each year on our roadways, than (e)scooter riders, or those that have collisions caused with inappropriate scooter use. The same is true with (e)bicycles of any form.

If UK law was strictly followed and enforced, ANY child riding a bicycle is supposed to ride it on the roadway. How should we deal with 5 or 6 year olds being forced to ride in heavy traffic? That's why the police don't enforce the completely out-of-date law created in 1835, legislated 60 years before motor vehicles as we know them were seen on roadways.

E-scooters used at kick-scooter speeds are perfectly safe for everyone. I personally lost a friend who tripped and died having stuck his head as he fell against a lampost. Should we be calling for the banning of lamp posts? Anything, and everything is potentially lethal is mis-used. Yesterday I read about another baby drowning in the bath. Ban baths? Sadly, some people have to learn how dangerous the world can be the hard way.

I was going to conclude with some facile comment like; "I haven't researched figures, but I'd be surprised to find more people died from e-scooter misuse than choking on food", then I thought - better check .......

One moment, please...

3-400 people a year die through choking on their food. Ban food?

There are much, much bigger problems with UK road safety, than e-scooters, which ought to be at the bottom of any government "to do" list. At the top, should be a repeal or relative amendment to that dangerous 1835 law.

 

[flecc]

There is never a call to ban horse riding, nor ban fishing, nor ban stairs, nor ban ladders.

The point being that these already exist. They are not justification for introducing a new, formerly unknown but certain very high risk.

E-scooters used at kick-scooter speeds are perfectly safe for everyone.

Agreed, but only at those very low speeds on pavements.

KIck scooting with extreme effort doesn't get to even half the 15 mph of an e-scooter, most of the time it's 4 to 6 mph. If you doubt that, with a bicycle having a front wheel measuring speedo, lift the front wheel off the ground and try flicking it along by hand. You'll be hard pushed to get far beyond 4 mph registered, something I've demonstrated to others with much surprise. Kicking a scooter along has similar results, safe on small wheels.

Very few people have the remotest inkling about the complex relationship between the steering speed and wheel size on two wheelers, or even that steering has speed. The very small wheels and narrow handlebars on most e-scooters at speed are fundamentally at the limits of human control ability. It might seem a strange comparison but true, it's why variable canard wings on aircraft had to wait until computer control was advanced enough to substantially better human reaction times.

So if you want e-scooters for anyone, have them limited to 8 mph maximum drive speed, with a minimum wheel diameter appropriate to that speed, an adequate brake, and only to be used on pavements with care for pedestrians.

But absolutely not with any size tiny wheels at 15mph on roads.
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[StuartsProjects]

3-400 people a year die through choking on their food. Ban food?

Fair point.

If you banned food and given time, the number of deaths by choking would fall to zero.

 

[soundwave]

thats the problem and kids just dont look where there going tho i gave one a good whack with one of my retard rammers last week

was following a Deliveroo rider down the alleyway today going 25mph and was ringing his $hitty little bell and not one person moved a inc and was riding no handed so all over the place so when i got my chance went in to race mode and over took him on the grass going 35mph and cut straight back on to the path bet he never seen a bosch bike do that

 

[FastFreddy2]

The point being that these already exist. They are not justification for introducing a new, formerly unknown but certain very high risk.


So if you want e-scooters for anyone, have them limited to 8 mph maximum drive speed, with a minimum wheel diameter appropriate to that speed, an adequate brake, and only to be used on pavements with care for pedestrians.

But absolutely not with any size tiny wheels at 15mph on roads.
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I doubt anyone on the planet can hope to turn back or stop the tide of technology advancing, and new life threatening technology harming us foolish humans. E-scooters vs mobile phones? A grain of sand compared to Bondi beach.

This is not 'office safe' (turn down speakers)

"Self managing" fully autonomous electric cars? Someone spent too much time watching Total Recall.

I've already agreed there SHOULD have been legislation pointed at suppliers, not owners. It worked with motor bikes. And tiny wheels, aka inappropriate sized wheel on e-scooters, completely crazy, but originally sized to aid being carried. 8mph is plenty, if not too fast. But absolutely not on public roads EVER. Pathways, grass verge, but no-one should be on the road unless the inside a vehicle with airbags, or on a motorbike with every bit of body protection available. Modern roads are for motorised transport capable of speeds in excess of 60mph, unless they happen to be novice motorbikes that are restricted.

Some time ago I started pricing up one of these to include in a conversion .....





But the buy price is higher than a bicycle with a better (way better) spec'. And if it doesn't have disc brakes all around, I'm not using it anyway.

 

[FastFreddy2]

Fair point.

If you banned food and given time, the number of deaths by choking would fall to zero.

Now this, had me laughing out loud.

 

[soundwave]

I doubt anyone on the planet can hope to turn back or stop the tide of technology advancing, and new life threatening technology harming us foolish humans. E-scooters vs mobile phones? A grain of sand compared to Bondi beach.

This is not 'office safe' (turn down speakers)

"Self managing" fully autonomous electric cars? Someone spent too much time watching Total Recall.

I've already agreed there SHOULD have been legislation pointed at suppliers, not owners. It worked with motor bikes. And tiny wheels, aka inappropriate sized wheel on e-scooters, completely crazy, but originally sized to aid being carried. 8mph is plenty, if not too fast.

Some time ago I started pricing up one of these to include in a conversion .....


View attachment 51390


But the buy price is higher than a bicycle with a better (way better) spec'. And if it doesn't have disc brakes all around, I'm not using it anyway.

it only goes 90mph and free postage

 

[FastFreddy2]

View attachment 51391

it only goes 90mph and free postage

Any sane person, would rather spend that money on a motorbike.

 

[soundwave]

Any sane person, would rather spend that money on a motorbike.

but you have to tax and insure that. that thing might cost 10k but unless you take the pi$$ on it round here no one will care.

i can hit 40 and no ones bothered at that speed as glued to there phones anyway as so used to it now with all the scooters and ebikes delivering food from the center of Gloucester at night you need a fkn crash helmet just to walk about.

bafang had a fight with a seagull and got its ass ran over but went back to take a pic on the way home but some one nicked it

 

[flecc]

I doubt anyone on the planet can hope to turn back or stop the tide of technology advancing, and new life threatening technology harming us foolish humans. E-scooters vs mobile phones? A grain of sand compared to Bondi beach.

This is not 'office safe' (turn down speakers)

"Self managing" fully autonomous electric cars? Someone spent too much time watching Total Recall.

I've already agreed there SHOULD have been legislation pointed at suppliers, not owners. It worked with motor bikes. And tiny wheels, aka inappropriate sized wheel on e-scooters, completely crazy, but originally sized to aid being carried. 8mph is plenty, if not too fast. But absolutely not on public roads EVER. Pathways, grass verge, but no-one should be on the road unless the inside a vehicle with airbags, or on a motorbike with every bit of body protection available. Modern roads are for motorised transport capable of speeds in excess of 60mph, unless they happen to be novice motorbikes that are restricted.

Some time ago I started pricing up one of these to include in a conversion .....


View attachment 51390


But the buy price is higher than a bicycle with a better (way better) spec'. And if it doesn't have disc brakes all around, I'm not using it anyway.

All fully agreed, and as I've long predicted, autonomous electric cars are turning out to be no more than a bad joke. I have one with level 2/3 automation that I thoroughly tested in the early months with it. I found far too many circumstances that caught it out, making it dangerous for me and others on the road, so I have it almost all switched out of action.

The technologies are still decades behind what is necessary. Those who were pushing the hardest to introduce them are now getting increasing shy on the subject as they realise how difficult it really is. We'll still be doing all the driving on roads for many decades to come.

E-scooter speed I agree is still a bit too fast at 8 mph, but I seized on that speed since Japan has so much experience of it. There bicycles in cities often have to take to the pavements by law; limited to 13kph/8mph maximum then, and it seems to work very well.
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[FastFreddy2]

The technologies are still decades behind what is necessary. Those who were pushing the hardest to introduce them are now getting increasing shy on the subject as they realise how difficult it really is. We'll still be doing all the driving on roads for many decades to come.

E-scooter speed I agree is still a bit too fast at 8 mph, but I seized on that speed since Japan has so much experience of it. There bicycles in cities often have to take to the pavements by law; limited to 13kph/8mph maximum then, and it seems to work very well.
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"Amen" to all that.

 

[soundwave]

Three teens arrested after string of e-scooter robberies

Some were reported to be on e-scooters with their faces covered

www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk

 

[guerney]

This is not 'office safe' (turn down speakers)

This tuktuk's TTP (Time To Pankcake) is extremely short... quite terrifying seeing it and the tuktuk's driver being dragged under the rear wheels and crushed flat, considering how us cyclists are increasingly surrounded by ever larger and heavier electric cars reliant on software.