Leaving the EU

[tillson]

Tillson, there are 4 main groups of asylum seekers: Syrians, Afghans, Iraquis and Northern Africans. They are all entiled to our protections under 2 UN Conventions, 1949 and 1951 because of wars or unstable political situations in their countries of origin.
In general, successive UK governments have allowed failed asylum seekers to remain a few years after their asylum applications are examined and most are actually rejected.
It follows that all people on those rubber boats must be allowed to arrive on dry land and given help. If they arrive on Lesbos, then the Schengen countries must allow them to choose where to apply for asylum.
The real solution is to stop wars and not help new 'springs'.

But my point is that they are not fleeing danger. They are making the crossing from a place of safety and turn violent when their expectations of free facilities and free financial help are not met. These people are overburdening an already failing and underfunded system.

In recent days we have seen that agreements between countries mean nothing ( the French) and can be disregarded at will. The 1949 and 1951 UN Conventions to which you refer were constructed with the best of intentions and I think most still agree with the spirit of them. However, they have been hijacked by freeloading criminals set on entering countries with the intention of milking their resources. We, you, I can't afford for this to happen. There is no plan regarding numbers or for the long term upkeep of them. It is a disaster unfolding before our eyes. The kindest think is to begin mass deportation to point of origin and measures which make it impossible to cross by sea.

 

[oldgroaner]

If you feel differently, open your home up to them and fund them for an indefinite period. Didn't think so! It's dead easy to pledge other people's money and resources.

And there we have the Nub of your argument, you really have no interest in anything other than Your money and resources do you?
In you case it "Dead easy to send people back to an uncertain fate (change that conveniently to SAFE COUNTRY) untruthfully to avoid being considered inhumane.
By the way has someone asked you to share your home with them? or are you referring to the land we happen to be standing on as your personal property?
Paid for by the Tax you have failed to avoid despite your best efforts?

 

[oldgroaner]

But my point is that they are not fleeing danger. They are making the crossing from a place of safety and turn violent when their expectations of free facilities and free financial help are not met. These people are overburdening an already failing and underfunded system.

In recent days we have seen that agreements between countries mean nothing ( the French) and can be disregarded at will. The 1949 and 1951 UN Conventions to which you refer were constructed with the best of intentions and I think most still agree with the spirit of them. However, they have been hijacked by freeloading criminals set on entering countries with the intention of milking their resources. We, you, I can't afford for this to happen. There is no plan regarding numbers or for the long term upkeep of them. It is a disaster unfolding before our eyes. The kindest think is to begin mass deportation to point of origin and measures which make it impossible to cross by sea.

The situation these people can expect is outline here
http://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/assets/0003/5790/Tell_it_Like_it_is_September_Final_PDF_2015.pdf
The fact is that the government has lost control of the situation and is incompetent to trace those admitted already, and that isn't the fault of the EU.

 

[tillson]

The situation these people can expect is outline here
http://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/assets/0003/5790/Tell_it_Like_it_is_September_Final_PDF_2015.pdf
The fact is that the government has lost control of the situation and is incompetent to trace those admitted already, and that isn't the fault of the EU.

But it's broken now. It is no longer doing what it was set up to do because it's been hijacked. It's unfit for purpose.

We simply can not continue to allow these ancient and outdated agreements to become a conduit for one country to empty its population into another.

 

[trex]

that may be.
That's why the EU and the very large blocs can solve such a big problem.
Not little England alone.

 

[derf]

Unfortunately, for several hundred years we have been the "criminals in boats", invading other countries around the world, subjugating their peoples, enforcing our form of rule and often stripping their assets.

We've most recently been doing that in Iraq and Afghanistan, so I can understand Iraqis, Afghans and others feeling they have a right to come here.

We reap what we sew.
.

that may be.
That's why the EU and the very large blocs can solve such a big problem.
Not little England alone.

yes if it weren't for Merkel's reaction to the refugee crisis and the developed world took the lead of say Hungary or Cameron's pledge to take 24000 - yes a whole 24000 refugees over three years - we'd all have to live with entirely valid and intense feelings of shame and look back on this much the way the world does now on Ruanda, or the genocide.

 

[tillson]

And there we have the Nub of your argument, you really have no interest in anything other than Your money and resources do you?
In you case it "Dead easy to send people back to an uncertain fate (change that conveniently to SAFE COUNTRY) untruthfully to avoid being considered inhumane.
By the way has someone asked you to share your home with them? or are you referring to the land we happen to be standing on as your personal property?
Paid for by the Tax you have failed to avoid despite your best efforts?

No one has asked me to share my home and i pay my way. So hopefully that's cleared up that bit.

Where are they going to live? Who is going to pay for their food, health care, schooling, social care, clothing, law and order and so on. The list is endless. This isn't just for a couple of weeks, this is for ever and the numbers will multiply as they have children and grand children.

The truth is that there is no financial plan apart from winging it. When it all starts to get out of control, the government nick a bit out of people's pension pots, reign in the NHS drug budget, make people wait a bit longer to see a GP, increase classroom sizes a bit more and so on. Incrementally eroding what we have worked and paid for with each new arrival.

You then see these migrants hurling bricks and rocks at the authorities and demanding handouts when their progress into Western Europe is impeded.

It is these two things which I object to. Being asked to fund, directly or indirectly, immigrant's lifestyles and the priming of a ticking bomb in terms of eventual civil unrest.

As I said before, if you want them here, write to be treasury and offer up your home, savings, pension and whilst your at it, to go to the back of the queue for health care with each new arrival.

 

[tillson]

Tillson reminds me of Margret Thatcher, the "working classes are the enemy within"

The working classes are no kind of enemy. They have been abandoned by the very people who should be looking after them. I, as a working class person, should be a staunch supporter of the Labour Party and be subscribing to a union or professional body. However, the Labour Party has been taken over by privileged individuals who consider it their duty to despise and resent people who want to better themselves in the work place. Their warped idealism is to resent and punish working people, whilst at the same time shovelling cash into the pockets of second and third generation benefit scrounges.

The unions are no better. What where once noble institutions which fought for and won fair pay and conditions for workers have now become political playthings for the insane. Whilst loyal and long serving workers at my local council were having their contracts literally torn up and replaced with less favourable terms, threatened with dismissal if they objected, UNISON were putting all of their efforts into an anti-fracking campaign.

I have nothing but admiration for the working classes. And nothing but disdain and loathing for the leeching freeloaders and their army of supporters.

 

[trex]

of course there is some truth in what you are saying, Tillson, I agree with you especially on 'there is no financial plan apart from winging it' but hope you are not suggesting we should do nothing about the refugee crisis because 'it's not our problem'.
Here is the map of asylum applications received last year across Europe, including Norway and Switzerland, do you think it's fair that we take on about as many asylum seekers as Belgium or Switzerland for example?

 

[tillson]

yes if it weren't for Merkel's reaction to the refugee crisis and the developed world took the lead of say Hungary or Cameron's pledge to take 24000 - yes a whole 24000 refugees over three years - we'd all have to live with entirely valid and intense feelings of shame and look back on this much the way the world does now on Ruanda, or the genocide.

Merkel did not take in refugees. The idiot opened the flood gates to a massive influx of people, a few of whom may have been fleeing danger, many of whom were simply seeking to suck up benefits and resources, an unknown number were murderous maniacs who despise the Germans and all that they represent and quite a few find it acceptable within their culture to sexually assault women. Let us hope that the Germans who stood on the railway station platforms smiling and welcoming the new arrivals won't be stood on the platforms with a furrowed brow when they arrive by train at their next destination. When the Germans stop smiling it becomes very worrying.

 

[flecc]

To paraphrase the late James Callaghan, "Crisis, what crisis?"

The total of EU claims for asylum from Trex's post above is just 0.26% of the EU population.
.

 

[tillson]

of course there is some truth in what you are saying, Tillson, I agree with you especially on 'there is no financial plan apart from winging it' but hope you are not suggesting we should do nothing about the refugee crisis because 'it's not our problem'.
Here is the map of asylum applications received last year across Europe, including Norway and Switzerland, do you think it's fair that we take on about as many asylum seekers as Belgium or Switzerland for example?

Let me make it clear. I have no issues with the U.K. taking in asylum seekers. How awful it would be for us to turn our backs on people living in constant fear of persecution, torture and murder. You only have to imagine your own loved ones being taken away by thugs to an unknown fate to appreciate how grateful you would be of refuge in a safe country. That's beyond dispute.

However, the line is being blurred between refugee and immigrant. Probably deliberately so by those who have an agenda to promote mass immigration. This is damaging the status of refugee and cheapens the term. A bit like the term racist has been cheapened and devalued by those who spew it out every time someone talks about limiting immigration for example.

In terms of numbers of refugees, I don't think any should be turned away. Some kind of re-think needs to happen in terms of a countries ability to absorb them. This should take into account the ability of the infrastructure to cope, those with the greatest spare capacity taking the most.

Immigration needs stopping dead in its tracks now and a reversal needs to happen in the form of deporting illegal entrants into the country.

 

[gray198]

Although I disagree with a lot that Mr Cameron says and does I do think that he has taken the right approach in going directly to the camp's in Lebanon and choosing the deserving cases from there. Whether the sum of 20000 over 5 years is the right amount I don't know. However we also have to contend with all the legal immigration from Europe especially from Eastern Europe who many of our politicians said wouldn't come. Seems like we've heard that before. Of course we should help people in genuine need ( including people from here) but as Tillson says there are limits to how many we can absorb. When I look at those poor people trudging through the snow especially the little children I could cry and I have nothing but scorn for the useless politicians who have created the situation. Germany was definitely a prime cause by inviting everybody in and then being surprised when they came. It is definitely a failed organisation. The Euro has been a disaster and caused economic misery through most of the southern countries, but it is a project that they cannot admit they got wrong. Wern't we told that disaster would befall us if we did not join the Euro. Seems like they were wrong then so why should anyone believe them now

 

[tillson]

Although I disagree with a lot that Mr Cameron says and does I do think that he has taken the right approach in going directly to the camp's in Lebanon and choosing the deserving cases from there. Whether the sum of 20000 over 5 years is the right amount I don't know. However we also have to contend with all the legal immigration from Europe especially from Eastern Europe who many of our politicians said wouldn't come. Seems like we've heard that before. Of course we should help people in genuine need ( including people from here) but as Tillson says there are limits to how many we can absorb. When I look at those poor people trudging through the snow especially the little children I could cry and I have nothing but scorn for the useless politicians who have created the situation. Germany was definitely a prime cause by inviting everybody in and then being surprised when they came. It is definitely a failed organisation. The Euro has been a disaster and caused economic misery through most of the southern countries, but it is a project that they cannot admit they got wrong. Wern't we told that disaster would befall us if we did not join the Euro. Seems like they were wrong then so why should anyone believe them now

Very well said.

 

[oldgroaner]

No one has asked me to share my home and i pay my way. So hopefully that's cleared up that bit.

Where are they going to live? Who is going to pay for their food, health care, schooling, social care, clothing, law and order and so on. The list is endless. This isn't just for a couple of weeks, this is for ever and the numbers will multiply as they have children and grand children.
Obviously you didn't read the pamphlet link I posted, as very few Refugees are actually accepted and take up permanent residence.
Here are the Governments immigration figures from YouGov
"
In the year ending (YE) September 2015:

Net long-term international migration = +323,000 (up 31,000 from YE September 2014).

Immigration = 617,000 (up 2,000 from YE September 2014).

Emigration = 294,000 (down 29,000 from YE September 2014)."
Which no doubt you will clam to be far fewer than came in reality, but apart form the Right wing Press stories, where is the proof?

 

[flecc]

A misplaced "Quote" has displaced Oldgroaners text. Here is his reply:

Obviously you didn't read the pamphlet link I posted, as very few Refugees are actually accepted and take up permanent residence.
Here are the Governments immigration figures from YouGov

In the year ending (YE) September 2015:

Net long-term international migration = +323,000 (up 31,000 from YE September 2014).

Immigration = 617,000 (up 2,000 from YE September 2014).

Emigration = 294,000 (down 29,000 from YE September 2014)."
Which no doubt you will clam to be far fewer than came in reality, but apart form the Right wing Press stories, where is the proof?
.

 

[tillson]

A misplaced "Quote" has displaced Oldgroaners text. Here is his reply:

Obviously you didn't read the pamphlet link I posted, as very few Refugees are actually accepted and take up permanent residence.
Here are the Governments immigration figures from YouGov

In the year ending (YE) September 2015:

Net long-term international migration = +323,000 (up 31,000 from YE September 2014).

Immigration = 617,000 (up 2,000 from YE September 2014).

Emigration = 294,000 (down 29,000 from YE September 2014)."
Which no doubt you will clam to be far fewer than came in reality, but apart form the Right wing Press stories, where is the proof?
.

I'm afraid I do not believe the figures and like you, I have no reliable documented proof. My suspicion that the government figures are false arrives in Dover every day in the back of lories and clinging to their axels.

 

[derf]

more to the point, we have royally f-d up their countries. How would we feel if Afghanistan repeatedly invaded the UK for over a hundred years in search for global domination/as part of a cold war, reduced it to a big heroin f

yes if it weren't for Merkel's reaction to the refugee crisis and the developed world took the lead of say Hungary or Cameron's pledge to take 24000 - yes a whole 24000 refugees over three years - we'd all have to live with entirely valid and intense feelings of shame and look back on this much the way the world does now on Ruanda, or the genocide.

Merkel did not take in refugees. The idiot opened the flood gates to a massive influx of people, a few of whom may have been fleeing danger, many of whom were simply seeking to suck up benefits and resources, an unknown number were murderous maniacs who despise the Germans and all that they represent and quite a few find it acceptable within their culture to sexually assault women. Let us hope that the Germans who stood on the railway station platforms smiling and welcoming the new arrivals won't be stood on the platforms with a furrowed brow when they arrive by train at their next destination. When the Germans stop smiling it becomes very worrying.

that's very xenophobic. living with this much resentment and prejudice must be a real PITA. In Americas in the 60's with racial integration they found that the best way to reduce ones xenophobia was to have voluntary contact with people from other backgrounds. I don't think I will be able to change your mind (immigrant that I am working full time in the nhs). what I would suggest is that you take a break and go and actually meet some of these people you make such sweeping judgements about. I bet if you spent a month doing charity work in a refugee camp it would change your perspective and you'd feel a great deal better about refugees, life and the EU

 

[mike killay]

We can all feel the milk of human kindness in our hearts now, we can weep for the young refugee victims of their parents recklessness in taking to flimsy boats in bad weather.
But,
We cannot legislate for future generations as yet unborn.
We have absolutely no idea how they will feel about the social, religious and cultural divides now being imported into Europe.
Seeing what happened in the 1920-45 era, I fear an unstable Germany in particular.
Will Europe call for another Charlemagne?
I will be long gone, but my grandchildren and great grandchildren will suffer the consequences of today's irresponsible bleeding heart naïve Liberal's do-gooding.

 

[flecc]

I will be long gone, but my grandchildren and great grandchildren will suffer the consequences of today's irresponsible bleeding heart naïve Liberal's do-gooding.

Or perhaps enjoy the benefits?

Why presume that foreigners can only bring suffering?
.