Leaving the EU
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
Hmm!
I'm not generally given to political threads, however, my very strong feelings on this important matter force me to scribe my thoughts.
There are of course many perspectives one might take on the EU. I won't attempt to summarise them all here. Europe's great, I do a great deal of holidaying all around. The EU is evil, probably the most insideous and totalitarian organisation I have known.
For the purposes of the referendum you only need consider the core issue. Do you believe the UK should be governed by our own democratically elected government, or do you prefer that our country is run by another. I am truly aghast at the public's apathy in not seeing the truth.
The last time an outside European regime wanted to tell us how to live our lives, my father dropped 30,000lbs of TNT on them.
If we vote to remain in, then further integration and indeed the Euro will follow as sure as night follows day. Get out of the EU right now.
Sorry to sit on the fence, but that's how I see it.
Happy new year to you all.
I'm not generally given to political threads, however, my very strong feelings on this important matter force me to scribe my thoughts.
There are of course many perspectives one might take on the EU. I won't attempt to summarise them all here. Europe's great, I do a great deal of holidaying all around. The EU is evil, probably the most insideous and totalitarian organisation I have known.
For the purposes of the referendum you only need consider the core issue. Do you believe the UK should be governed by our own democratically elected government, or do you prefer that our country is run by another. I am truly aghast at the public's apathy in not seeing the truth.
The last time an outside European regime wanted to tell us how to live our lives, my father dropped 30,000lbs of TNT on them.
If we vote to remain in, then further integration and indeed the Euro will follow as sure as night follows day. Get out of the EU right now.
Sorry to sit on the fence, but that's how I see it.
Happy new year to you all.
I believe this goes to the core of the problem. We are perfectly capable of making our own laws, indeed, far better able to know what's best for our own country than the rest of the EU are. We have democratically voted in our government who should then be able to determine our own laws and taxes and must be in a position to decide who is allowed into our country and for what reason. I am a part of the Judiciary and it annoys me intensely when the UK law is overruled by EU law. If we want to deport someone as a criminal, we should be allowed to do so. Suddenly Germany have a problem with immigrants in Cologne, and they are able to deport them immediately. If we tried to do that, the EU would step in with the Human Rights law.
We are now just a small cog in a very large and unwieldy wheel and our influence is insignificant.
We are now just a small cog in a very large and unwieldy wheel and our influence is insignificant.
Not the EU (ECtHR) but our HR lawyers who can charge up to £500 an hour.
As a member of the judiciary, you know that it's necessary to examine the facts before reaching a judgement, yet with regard to this posting about the EU you have clearly failed to do that.
Original UK law on e-bikes, 12 mph assist limit, strict 200 watts peak power, 14 years lower age limit.
EU law which in two stages we've mainly adopted, 15.5 mph assist limit, tolerant 250 watts rating which allows over double that peak power, no lower age limit, the latter still in force in the UK due to our restrictions, not the EU's.
S pedelecs allowed in any EU country that wants them, the UK's DfT refuses to accept them.
Segways and the like permitted by the EU, but banned by the UK.
A point you are missing is that within any EU country including the UK, usage is entirely under the control of national governments. For example, France has VSPs, light cars that can be driven without licences since they are like S pedelecs restricted to 28 mph maximum. Other countries have similar local arrangements for themselves. The only reason we don't have such individual benefits is the UK's own government's strictness, for example:
The DfT have now reached almost full alignment with EU pedelec laws and have banned throttles unless the pedelec is type approved since the EU requires that. But they didn't need to within the UK, we are allowed to set usage permissions and it's only the DfT's attempt at strict adherence that's blocking us. Most stupid of all is that they have now had to admit that even when type approved, pedelecs with throttle will still not be allowed in other EU countries, so their throttle ban is pointless, achieving nothing for either us or the EU.
I hope you can see now from these examples that it's our governance that is the problem, not the EU. It's why the other EU countries are so much more content with the EU, due to their own much better and flexible internal governance. And it's not just e-biking where this is true, it holds good right across the board affecting our lives in numerous ways.
.
This is very obviously not true, here's some examples of UK restrictiveness pertinent to this forum:
Original UK law on e-bikes, 12 mph assist limit, strict 200 watts peak power, 14 years lower age limit.
EU law which in two stages we've mainly adopted, 15.5 mph assist limit, tolerant 250 watts rating which allows over double that peak power, no lower age limit, the latter still in force in the UK due to our restrictions, not the EU's.
S pedelecs allowed in any EU country that wants them, the UK's DfT refuses to accept them.
Segways and the like permitted by the EU, but banned by the UK.
A point you are missing is that within any EU country including the UK, usage is entirely under the control of national governments. For example, France has VSPs, light cars that can be driven without licences since they are like S pedelecs restricted to 28 mph maximum. Other countries have similar local arrangements for themselves. The only reason we don't have such individual benefits is the UK's own government's strictness, for example:
The DfT have now reached almost full alignment with EU pedelec laws and have banned throttles unless the pedelec is type approved since the EU requires that. But they didn't need to within the UK, we are allowed to set usage permissions and it's only the DfT's attempt at strict adherence that's blocking us. Most stupid of all is that they have now had to admit that even when type approved, pedelecs with throttle will still not be allowed in other EU countries, so their throttle ban is pointless, achieving nothing for either us or the EU.
I hope you can see now from these examples that it's our governance that is the problem, not the EU. It's why the other EU countries are so much more content with the EU, due to their own much better and flexible internal governance. And it's not just e-biking where this is true, it holds good right across the board affecting our lives in numerous ways.
See above, we can do exactly the same as Germany, as Trex rightly pointed out, it's ourselves who once again are the problem. Our courts can be as liberal as those in any other EU country, but their illiberal attitudes are illustrated by the large number of times our citizens have had to go the the European courts to get the basic justice they've been denied in our courts.
And once again entirely our own fault. If we had joined in properly and wholeheartedly as the other nations did, we would have been hugely influential within the EU and ranking at least equal to Germany and France in making decisions. But what we've done instead is to always stand outside mouthing criticism and refusing to join in, like a sulking brat.
.
Last edited:
Whether it's our own fault for being an easy touch or not, we will not change and we will remain an insignificant cog, or a sulking brat as you call it. So the argument for getting out remains valid.
The examples you use to illustrate to show that it's our government who are at fault are just that, examples. And it remains the case that our country will always take every EU law as overriding the law of this country. We cannot change what we are as a culture and how we consequently react to the laws by which we feel we must abide.
Other EU countries have always taken a more relaxed attitude to the laws that Brussel churns out and even disciplined, law abiding Germany have changed to adapt to the EU, but we haven't and I don't believe it is in our nature to change so sulking brats we may be and we are better off out of the club.
The more that the EU expands to include countries with ever different cultures to our own, the more difficult it is going to be to find a common ground. I can only see matters getting worse for us.
And I for one am eternally grateful that we didn't join the euro thereby surrendering the ability to be able to set our own interest rates (and that is a view I hold despite being a saver with no mortgage).
The examples you use to illustrate to show that it's our government who are at fault are just that, examples. And it remains the case that our country will always take every EU law as overriding the law of this country. We cannot change what we are as a culture and how we consequently react to the laws by which we feel we must abide.
Other EU countries have always taken a more relaxed attitude to the laws that Brussel churns out and even disciplined, law abiding Germany have changed to adapt to the EU, but we haven't and I don't believe it is in our nature to change so sulking brats we may be and we are better off out of the club.
The more that the EU expands to include countries with ever different cultures to our own, the more difficult it is going to be to find a common ground. I can only see matters getting worse for us.
And I for one am eternally grateful that we didn't join the euro thereby surrendering the ability to be able to set our own interest rates (and that is a view I hold despite being a saver with no mortgage).
mortgage rates in the Euro zone tend to be lower and much more stable than ours.
I think the real reason for us not joining the Euro is that we need to print a lot of paper money to keep our banks afloat.
It isn't so much a relaxed attitude in other countries, more a misinterpretation by the UK. EU law is just that, applying across the EU but not necessarily within any member country. For example, our politicians have often moaned about the European Court of Human Rights, but EU law itself says that it's judgements are not binding on any country. It's only a court of guidance suggesting good practice, so there's no grounds to criticise it's status. Underlining that fact is that David Cameron has said he will ignore it's rulings.
In a sense I agree with you that if our government continue to insist on always over-interpreting EU law, we will lose some of the benefits of membership. However, that doesn't mean we'll be better off out, I believe the future loss to us would be considerable.
.
do our politicians find it an easy way out to blame the EU for everything, and say they can't do anything about it. Seems to me that they are abdicating responsibility and not up to the job. Everything that is wrong is someone else's fault. I believe the British people should be given the facts in an unbiased way, but already we are starting to see the cynical spin operation and manipulation. Although cameron has said his Mp's are free to oppose stopping in they are not allowed to do it yet, but the pro euro ones are already on the case. Talk about one sided!!!!
I honestly don't think that current EU countries that now trade with us, suddenly won't. I think we will end up with a negotiated trade agreement such as Norway and Switzerland currently have. Several large companies have already started their intention to stay in the UK regardless of the referendum result. And although David Cameron was recently criticised for dealing with the Chinese, I think that he is right to court them to the extent that much of our future business could be carried out with both China and India.
But being in EFTA to be able to trade with the the EU still means having to accept almost all EU law! Norway has the whole package for example, including even pedelec law with no throttles, and Switzerland abides by EU rulings for cross border trading though not a member.
So where is this supposed benefit from leaving of being able to fix our own laws? I can tell you, it's mythical.
Agreed, but the nature of both countries means the vast majority of trade will be them selling to us as at present, but more so. Quick route to going broke.
.
Yes I know that you are absolutely right about both Norway and Switzerland having to abide by EU trading law and that, in both cases, includes being part of the Schengen agreement. I can only hope for all our sakes that if we leave, we achieve a less tying deal than they have got. It is something that we need to have a serious discussion about but I fear that Brussels being the monster that it is, will not wish to contemplate Brexit and it's aftermath. I for one would hate to end up outside the EU but with no control of our borders due to an enforced Schengen pact - how ironic would that be?!
It also means paying into the EU in order to gain access to the single market as Norway has to do. As well as having to accept EU law without any say in forming it. All this was posted further up the thread.
It seems to me that most anti EU people won’t face reality, and seem to believe that there is place in the sun for Britain somewhere in a mythical past or in mid Atlantic. Or maybe over the bloody rainbow. The world is becoming one of trading blocks and unless we reconquer the one time British Empire we will find it bloody cold outside of the one we are in.
It’s all a bit like the middle aged white supporters of Donald Trump pining for an America where they felt they belonged. But having no idea how to get there, and no understanding of the forces which have shaped modern America and turned it into the place they evidently find so alien.
It seems to me that most anti EU people won’t face reality, and seem to believe that there is place in the sun for Britain somewhere in a mythical past or in mid Atlantic. Or maybe over the bloody rainbow. The world is becoming one of trading blocks and unless we reconquer the one time British Empire we will find it bloody cold outside of the one we are in.
It’s all a bit like the middle aged white supporters of Donald Trump pining for an America where they felt they belonged. But having no idea how to get there, and no understanding of the forces which have shaped modern America and turned it into the place they evidently find so alien.
Why would we have to pay into the EU to access the market.Are all the companies who export billions of trade to the UK going to stop if we don't,t pay it. I'm sure that China which seems to make everything we buy anyway, and other countries would be only too willing to fill the gap. It's all scare stories put out by people with a vested interest
John, We are arguably the fifth largest economy and the eighth largest manufacturing country in the world. Why on earth couldn't we expect to stand on our own two feet? America, China and other large economies trade freely with other smaller countries outside the various trading blocks and there is no reason why they wouldn't want to trade with us. We may even be in a position to become a more attractive trading partner once we lose the shekels of the EU regulations that our businesses have to bear. I am not so stupid as to think it will be all sweetness and light but I do believe that we can make our own way in this world.
I think it's a little hasty to compare anti EU people to supporters of Donald Trump who when all is said and done, is a racist. That's something I am resolutely not!
As for us not having any say in EU law if we exit, do you seriously believe we have any say now? Over the last 40 EU votes, Britain have disagreed with and lost every one. Our influence is insignificant at best and demeaning at worst.
We may well have to pay some tariffs if we are out of the EU, but there will be payments into the EU coffers that we will no longer be liable for, we ARE a net payer into the EU after all.
I must say I think it's a little unfair to accuse all of those who disagree with your opinion of being not in tune with reality. I'm sure that people on both sides of the argument have thought about it rather than just picked a decision out of thin air. Two people who disagree aren't necessarily clever versus stupid, or realistic against unrealistic and everyone should be entitled to their point of view without fear of being laughed at or derided for it.
I think it's a little hasty to compare anti EU people to supporters of Donald Trump who when all is said and done, is a racist. That's something I am resolutely not!
As for us not having any say in EU law if we exit, do you seriously believe we have any say now? Over the last 40 EU votes, Britain have disagreed with and lost every one. Our influence is insignificant at best and demeaning at worst.
We may well have to pay some tariffs if we are out of the EU, but there will be payments into the EU coffers that we will no longer be liable for, we ARE a net payer into the EU after all.
I must say I think it's a little unfair to accuse all of those who disagree with your opinion of being not in tune with reality. I'm sure that people on both sides of the argument have thought about it rather than just picked a decision out of thin air. Two people who disagree aren't necessarily clever versus stupid, or realistic against unrealistic and everyone should be entitled to their point of view without fear of being laughed at or derided for it.
Not scare stories, tariff barriers will apply as they do for all outsiders, and they can be harsh. For example China suffers from a 48.5% tarriff on bicycles exported into the EU. We wouldn't suffer levels as high as that, but since the mainland EU is almost 7 times our size, you can easily imagine who will have the advantage.
We need their huge market far more than they need our little one. And just watch the car companies flee, moving their factories onto the EU mainland if we leave the union and have tariff barriers.
Of course everyone will still be selling to us, but it's our need to equally sell to them that's the problem once we are a tiddler without the EU's open market and international strength.
.
In the event that trade tariffs are introduced, clearly we would do the same. Bearing in mind the EU sell us a great deal more than we sell them, we would likely do very well from tariff income.
I don't believe for a moment that the car manufacturers would exit the UK to set up shop elsewhere in the eurozone. Nissan and Toyota have very recently indicated their thoughts on the matter. They have had many opportunities to invest in recent years but have elected to continue to invest in euro-sceptic Britain. Consumers and industry do business with each other, not governments. The hapless wasters at Brussels know only how to scoop from the corrupt trough. The EU accounts never get signed off because so much cash goes missing. They spend £100 million a year moving the parliament between Brussels and Strasbourg. It should be termed the waster's union. I'm sure the Kinnock family are enjoying the millions they have snaffled from the EU trough. If any benefit has resulted from this expenditure then its news to me.
It's not just us either. How long do you expect the younger generations in the southern european countries will be content to serve drinks and food to the holidaying glitterati from the North. The EU have already trashed the economies with their 'buy your own debt with taxpayers money' fantasy economic policy. This is not sustainable, and despite the media's acutely biased pro EU coverage, there is substantial euro scepticism in France, Spain and Germany. It will end in tears.
In a matter such as this, the details of E-bike law are, to my mind, insignificant. I don't want to take part in any more multi-cultural experiments. I like Britain as it has traditionally been, even with all it's injustices and problems. If it all goes wrong because we have chosen autonomy, then we only have ourselves to blame. If we remain, within 10 years we will be powerless to do anything about it. People will get angry and ultimately it will all go terribly wrong.
Surely, can anyone really have any faith in this renegotiation charade that 'Dave' has choreographed. It's an utter shambles, and his belief that we will all be fooled by his lies just goes to show the contempt he holds us in. I fully expect him to arrange a speech at Croyden Airport. He will say, "I hold in my hand a piece of paper". We all know what happened next!!!
I don't believe for a moment that the car manufacturers would exit the UK to set up shop elsewhere in the eurozone. Nissan and Toyota have very recently indicated their thoughts on the matter. They have had many opportunities to invest in recent years but have elected to continue to invest in euro-sceptic Britain. Consumers and industry do business with each other, not governments. The hapless wasters at Brussels know only how to scoop from the corrupt trough. The EU accounts never get signed off because so much cash goes missing. They spend £100 million a year moving the parliament between Brussels and Strasbourg. It should be termed the waster's union. I'm sure the Kinnock family are enjoying the millions they have snaffled from the EU trough. If any benefit has resulted from this expenditure then its news to me.
It's not just us either. How long do you expect the younger generations in the southern european countries will be content to serve drinks and food to the holidaying glitterati from the North. The EU have already trashed the economies with their 'buy your own debt with taxpayers money' fantasy economic policy. This is not sustainable, and despite the media's acutely biased pro EU coverage, there is substantial euro scepticism in France, Spain and Germany. It will end in tears.
In a matter such as this, the details of E-bike law are, to my mind, insignificant. I don't want to take part in any more multi-cultural experiments. I like Britain as it has traditionally been, even with all it's injustices and problems. If it all goes wrong because we have chosen autonomy, then we only have ourselves to blame. If we remain, within 10 years we will be powerless to do anything about it. People will get angry and ultimately it will all go terribly wrong.
Surely, can anyone really have any faith in this renegotiation charade that 'Dave' has choreographed. It's an utter shambles, and his belief that we will all be fooled by his lies just goes to show the contempt he holds us in. I fully expect him to arrange a speech at Croyden Airport. He will say, "I hold in my hand a piece of paper". We all know what happened next!!!
I agree with your sentiments and whilst I generally support the Conservative party, I think that the conditions that David Cameron have put to the EU are very watered down, designed to be able to say that he has got what we wanted and we can therefore stay on the EU. I doubt that any agreements that he gets will impress me enough to make me change my mind. I will listen to what he has to say however.
C
Cyclezee
Guest
I think you are simply focusing on one aspect of EU membership without considering the wider aspects and benefits we enjoy.
I think we are all a little guilty of that once we are erring on one side or the other aren't we?!
I am always keen to listen to the opposing opinion though, I'm a seasoned Question Time viewer and always fascinated by what others have to say, as long as it is constructive. (Not that QT is always constructive!).
Seriously though, it isn't just one aspect that bothers me. It's really down to employing our own justice, which I think is generally fair; to controlling our own borders, where we have a fair tradition of tolerance within reason; to not being hampered by what has become an expensive, autocratic and unwieldy beast and to being able to govern ourselves which we managed to do without hindrance pre EU. As the EU takes in other countries further east and south, our cultures become ever more different and because it is no longer just a trading block, this creates differences between us that non veto decisions cannot solve. Like many others of my age, who voted for the original EU when it was just a free trading area, I just don't think it works in it's present form and I only see it getting worse. And gradually, sad to say, for me the disadvantages have overtaken the advantages.