Perhaps you could enlighten us with some of these 'benefits' Cyclezee.
Who governs our country, whilst only one aspect of EU membership, is surely quite a significant one.
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Leaving the EU
- Thread starter flecc
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Who governs our country, whilst only one aspect of EU membership, is surely quite a significant one.
the CBI put the net cost of Britain's contributions to the EU at around 10 billions and economic benefits at around 62 billions. Leaving the EU would bring living cost down but would hurt our income too.
£62 Billions!! Utter tosh, where is this income? What benefits? As I recall the CBI said if we didn't join the euro our economy would collapse. They couldn't have got it more wrong.
I'm pretty sure those figures don't take into account that we will be free to trade with countries outside the EU and the CBI has it's own agenda of course (doesn't everyone
).It's difficult to believe that Britain, one of the economically strongest countries in the EU, is still a net recipient of EU monies. The EU must be haemorrhaging money if that's the case.
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don't blame me for these figures, they are the CBI's. There will be winners and losers like in every change. Most of us, pensioners, have probably nothing to worry about, we'll be likely among the winners but our children may be losers. The 62 billions figure comprises likely the higher achieved price for our producers (farmers, fishermen, transformative industries, healthcare, pharmaceuticals).
Back in early 2014 UKIP told us that the EU costs us a net figure of £33m a day. Those figures are just about as believable as the CBI figures and being from diametrically opposed organisations, the true figure is one we will probably never know but is no doubt somewhere in the middle of the two!
Please feel free to shoot the messenger!
Please feel free to shoot the messenger!
UKIP's figures (£33 millions a day * 365 days) are more or less same as CBI's £10 billions net cost a year. Where UKIP differs with the CBI is on the net cost of economic activity. The CBI believes that EU membership give our economy a lot more than it costs. I don't really care that much about how much our economy benefits from it, I'll vote to leave anyway.
The living standards we've enjoyed since we joined the EU, that's just one of the benefits of membership.
Most of our population have enjoyed a far higher standard of living since than we enjoyed prior to 1973.
As I pointed out earlier, back in the 1950s and 1960s, our homes were bare compared to today, very few owned cars, few had ever flown, overseas holidays in the sun were solely the province of the wealthy and pensions were a pittance.
Many of those things changed due to the EU membership benefits, pensions being a perfect example. Our governments were increasingly shamed by the stark contrast between our old age pension and those in the EU countries which were often between two and three times ours. They were eventually compelled to improve them, despite which we still lag behind our partners in the main EU countries.
Remember the huge fuss over school meals? 37 pence per pupil per day in the UK, £2.50 in Germany and France and £4 per day for Italian school pupils! Once again we were shamed into doing better for our kids, yet still we are far behind.
The conclusion is inescapable, under the UK government we are treated poorly, perhaps unsurprising since we are subjects. Under EU influence we are treated far better, more like their populations who are citizens, not subjects. UK governments prefer to buy missile submarines, aircaft carriers and other non-defensive attack ships rather than treat their populations decently.
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I fear that no matter how much discussion ensues, coming from whatever organisation, we are never going to be able to make an objective decision based on how much the EU does or doesn't cost the country.
We are advised not to vote with the heart but it may come down to just that unless we can somehow drill down through all the biased opinions, right and left wing press and the political agendas. No wonder Joe public is confused!
We are advised not to vote with the heart but it may come down to just that unless we can somehow drill down through all the biased opinions, right and left wing press and the political agendas. No wonder Joe public is confused!
But it can't be in any way proved that our increase in standard of living is down to EU membership. America, China and India have also had incredible improvements without being part of the EU. And over the past 3 years or so, our economy has improved despite being part of a Union where others standards in the same union have gone far worse.
Before 1973 in fact we were still feeling the damage caused by the war and standards were almost bound to improve as that was put behind us. I don't think we need the EU to help maintain our standard of living when without the euro we have shown that we can do better than our EU partners by controlling our own interest rates and having economic governance over our own currency.
I take the view that Brussels is the one who treats us poorly and we have no control who governs us from Brussels. At least of we are truly unhappy with how our government treats us, we can vote with our feet, not so with Brussels.
I don’t know why you assumed I was referring to you in my post. I made my comments general for a reason.
But it seems to me that most of the anti EU crowd are the kind of people who Trump appeals to in the US. That is people who feel alienated by the present and who believe that their countries have a great future somewhere in their pasts. Not born out by any reading or understanding of economic or geopolitical reality it must be said. But a desire for a future more like the past in which they felt more comfortable. Of course it is an imagined past, and their imagined future is not borne out by reality either.
Which is why when the possible options for this country outside of the EU are looked at dispassionately they make no sense at all. They only make sense on a psychological level, and in that they have great appeal to some. But economically and even politically they really are a complete non starter.
It’s striking that the thing that moves both groups most is immigration. Mexico and such for one and Poland and other east European countries for the other. Also striking that anti immigration feeling is strongest where there are fewest immigrants. But in Europe at least freedom of movement of people is a cornerstone of the Treaty of Rome which cannot be negotiated away, and any attempt by the Tories to get off their internal party difficulties by doing so are doomed to failure.
Many British work and live in other parts of the EU too of course. It isn’t the one way street which the europhobe press owned by foreigners, and non doms, and other tax dodging rich men like to pretend it is when they spread their lies. They have all the rights and access to benefits which the citizens of those countries have. Many retired Brits live in Spain and use the Spanish health services for instance, and just as the incoming retired in Cornwall put an extra drain on heath services there, so do the retired Brits in Spain.
Incidentally on the subject of euro lies and myths. Did you know that the chief purveyor of those lies was one Boris Johnson? When he was working for the Telegraph years ago he was asked to come up with anti EU stories, and it was him who was responsible for the fishermen must wear hairnets, and cucumbers must be straight, and many of the other anti EU black propaganda stories which were and still are believed.
I know that immigration is a matter that is often cited as the most common anti EU concern but thinking about it, I don't think that is the case for myself. I certainly worry about how many people we and our services can accommodate on our small, already crowded island. I also worry about the clash of cultures and how that may affect our population. But I am glad that we have a multi cultural society and i have good friends in the Judiciary who have ethnic backgrounds and who also think that we can ill afford to let many more immigrants into the country.
It's really down to the fact that we are governed by Brussels in so many intrusive ways, that we have somehow lost more than we have gained that bothers me. Exiting may not be straight forward or easy but that's not reason enough for me to want to stay in.
As to ex pats, I actually have a brother who moved to Spain some years ago now. Like myself, he has had a kidney transplant and relies on the Spanish health service but that's simply his choice and I imagine if we exit, the status quo will remain, with us allowing EU members to stay in this country and EU countries allowing ex pats to stay in theirs.
It's really down to the fact that we are governed by Brussels in so many intrusive ways, that we have somehow lost more than we have gained that bothers me. Exiting may not be straight forward or easy but that's not reason enough for me to want to stay in.
As to ex pats, I actually have a brother who moved to Spain some years ago now. Like myself, he has had a kidney transplant and relies on the Spanish health service but that's simply his choice and I imagine if we exit, the status quo will remain, with us allowing EU members to stay in this country and EU countries allowing ex pats to stay in theirs.
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I did give two specifics as proof!
Old age pensions and school meals, only altered since we were so far out of step with our EU partners that our governments were shamed into improving both, by campaigners using our common membership as a lever.
I could also bore you with examples of European Court rulings that greatly improved the life of certain UK citizens, rulings opposed by various UK governments.
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I'm sorry Flecc, your right of course, but there must be many examples throughout our country's history where we have used other countries as a standard by which we judge and improve our own. That's surely not just an EU thing is it?
And I'm sure if we're out of the EU we will still look at other countries to see how we can improve ours, but at least it will be our own choice, nobody will foist changes on us that don't suit us and that we never approved of and we don't want. It will be on our terms.
I don't have that faith, since we've always done so badly in the "care" of UK governments. Prior to the EU membership we had the example of the USA's standards which were so much better than ours in those days, but not being bound in any tangible way to them, we didn't benefit.
It's been the membership of the EU that's forced our governments when confronted to try to match their standards. And of course it's not just economic matters that affect the way we are treated and quality of life. For example it took the European Court to shame our governments into accepting gay members of the armed forces. Prior to that they were dishonourably discharged, losing pensions etc and with the dishonourable discharge permanently on their record of service. Their are numerous similar examples of how the two European Courts improved the lot of many, in opposition to our UK governments who fought every case against their own subject's interests. I never want to go back to the often cruel sole rule of our UK governments, especially the English element.
They've just kicked out a measure that was intended to force landlords to make their rented homes of an acceptable living standard. Why? Well, perhaps the fact that 27% of Conservative MPs are landlords who might have to spend in consequence has something to do with it. It seems they'd rather protect slum landlords than spend a little themselves.
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It's true that it was the European Court of Human Rights that provided equal rights for our gay and lesbian members of the military but we were way ahead of other countries when it comes to gay rights generally. We made same sex acts legal in 1967 - before joining the EU, in point of fact. We are now, rightly, tackling trans gender issues before other countries. In fact, apparently only the Netherlands and Belgium allowed Civil Partnerships before us, and Spain the year after in 2005, so we were really generally vanguards in that respect rather than followers even within the EU.
And governments world wide will always sadly protect their own, just as the Brussels gravy train will. But again I repeat, we have the facility to vote our own government out but are rather impotent in relation to Brussels.
Mind you, the Labour party should polish up their act a bit so that we do have a viable alternative - which we don't at the moment!
And governments world wide will always sadly protect their own, just as the Brussels gravy train will. But again I repeat, we have the facility to vote our own government out but are rather impotent in relation to Brussels.
Mind you, the Labour party should polish up their act a bit so that we do have a viable alternative - which we don't at the moment!
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It looks like a deal has already been struck if you take note of what Juncker says. The whole question of renegotiation is a joke. Cameron has every intention of surrendering and trying to make it look like he has won major concessions allowing his pro Euro MP's to push the agenda while stopping opponents from speaking.This is what is called democracy in the EU, a place full of unelected nobodies on vast salaries and expenses. A place full of corruption and financial mismanagement. Why do we want to be ruled by them. The EU is starting to show it's limitations from the disastrous Euro to the migration crisis.Time we left