Leaving the EU

[JohnCade]

John not implying that at all but I am sure that a large amount of them are. I totally agree with you that without immigrants many public services would be in trouble, and in spite of what I have said I am not against immigration. But I would prefer it to be controlled rather than the shambles that it is at the moment. The other point about such as our NHS is why we need others to fill the posts. I know of nurses who have been trained at great expense and end up leaving because they are treated so badly by the management. There are nurses who want to rejoin after having families etc but have to jump through hoops to do so.At the same time we are importing nurses with dubious qualifications. It is not so much a shortage but more a matter of government incompetence. As an aside who decided that nurses needed a university degree. That must exclude a lot of decent caring people from the profession. Do the imported nurses have degrees to the same standard. As regards people living in Spain etc. Surely they contribute to the economy and I doubt they are living off any state benefits

Not many living on state benefits. The benefits the Tories would like to withdraw from them are in work benefits like tax credits and child benefit. If, as is the case with a few, child benefit is paid to a mother of a child living outside the UK then withdrawing it is fair enough. But all in work benefits should be given to all workers here wherever they come from including child benefit if the child lives in the UK.

That is EU law which we signed up to incidentally and no country in the EU is going to negotiate that away. The only way around it is to withdraw in work benefits from everyone including the native born. Or have a set period where people have to wait before they can claim them.

 

[JohnCade]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to preserve the English countryside from housing development. It's the numbers again. More people means that more housing is required and uncontrolled immigration is adding to the numbers placing a demand on housing (note I used the word adding, it would be wrong to put all the blame on immigration).

The sensible approach would be to put in place measures to reduce the population alongside the house building. Because if not, when do we stop building? Do we continue until there is absolutely no land left at all? Or do we stop at some point before then, and if so what is the point at which we stop? No one will answer these questions. I regularly fly over large parts of the UK and land is being consumed by housing at an alarming rate, and we haven't really started to address the housing shortage yet. Early next century, at historical rates, the population will have doubled again. Where are they going to live?

Returning to population reduction, deportation of immigrant criminals and those here illegally would be a start. The removal process needs to be streamlined too because for each one removed you have to make a lawyer a millionaire and set aside about two years of process. Next, I think the uk needs to become very unattractive to anyone without a contribution to make. I think a 10 year period without access to any form of benefit or free health care provision is fair. If I visit another country I make sure that any medical bill that I may incur whilst there is able to be paid. I don't see why entrants into the uk should not do the same. Switzerland insist on it, so should we.

I think that the removal of child benefits / tax credits should also be instigated. That money could be pumped into education. I support free education and would gladly pay more tax if it was spent in this area. Young people should be given more support and guidance than they currently receive in order to maximise their opportunities.

Switzerland is not in the UK and can insist. But we can use the health systems of other EU countries by obtaining a European Health Insurance Card. Most of the British in Spain are retired and make a lot of use of the Spanish health services.

The high tech industries are having a lot of problems recruiting skilled people because of the arbitrary limits set on non EU workers. It’s slowing those companies growth and limiting the contribution they can make to the UK economy. Silicon Valley is the winner from that.

 

[tillson]

Switzerland is not in the UK and can insist. But we can use the health systems of other EU countries by obtaining a European Health Insurance Card. Most of the British in Spain are retired and make a lot of use of the Spanish health services.

The high tech industries are having a lot of problems recruiting skilled people because of the arbitrary limits set on non EU workers. It’s slowing those companies growth and limiting the contribution they can make to the UK economy. Silicon Valley is the winner from that.

Non of this addresses the issue of our ballooning population and the devastating affect that is having on our services and infrastructure. When is enough enough? Nobody seems to know and that is worrying.

I still think we need to slam the door firmly shut and start the deportation of people who are in the country illegally and definitely those who commit crime against us as a thank you for our hospitality.

I don't know how the Spanish health service works, but I have a friend who emigrated to France late last year. He has to pay for his health care and is fully self sufficient in terms of finance. Our health service can't adequately cope with caring for those who have funded it. It's despicable that our politicians give it away to those who have contributed nothing whilst enjoying an enhanced service for themselves.

Sorry, but we seem to be at the opposite ends of the scale on this one, but I respect your opinion.

 

[tillson]

I see that the French PM has warned mass migration is putting the EU at risk. Not such a good idea now is it? I think anyone with an ounce of common sense has known that mass migration is a bad thing for many years and that it is an impending disaster.

Both Schengen and the Euro, the two EU flagship projects, seem to be in total chaos at the moment and disintegrating before our eyes. Thank goodness we didn't get involved with either. This is going to cause hardship for millions, but of course the architects of this complete balls up will be well insulated from its affects, as always.

Interestingly, the French PM hasn't criticised Merkel for her criminally insane act of throwing the door open and importing torturers, murderers, rapists and sexual predators to prey on her subjects. Instead he said that the Germans need help. Maybe.

 

[trex]

Merkel is not insane.
We have all signed up to the Geneva 1951 Conventions, accepting the rights of migrants and refugees and nobody is going to throw human beings back into the sea.

 

[tillson]

Merkel is not insane.
We have all signed up to the Geneva 1951 Conventions, accepting the rights of migrants and refugees and nobody is going to throw human beings back into the sea.

I've read this thread from begining to end and I can't find the bit where somebody suggested throwing human beings into the oceans. In case I missed it, can you link to that bit please?

Merkel is insane and her insanity stems from the fact that she doesn't know if she has accepted refugees, murderers, rapists, torturers or any other combination of people that you can possibly imagine into the country. That is the insanity. If there had been proper control and people checked and processed and then either deported or accepted, that would have demonstrated sanity.

I question if these people are refugees. Why, having made it to a place of safety do they then embark on a perilous sea crossing to somewhere else? This can be equated to a person being chased along a street by an axe wielding maniac. The victim then runs inside a police station, but continues on out the back door and swims through a tank full of sharks because there might be a more comfortable place to hide further on. Also, why are they mainly young men who throw bricks and other missiles at the authorities when they don't get what they want? The answer to these questions is that they are not refugees at all, they are chancers and spongers looking to leech off other people's hard work.

The other fact is, the more peolple who come across by boat and we accept, the more will come. We are bankrolling the people smugglers. The message needs hammering home that if you get on one of these boats, you will probably die because no one will rescue you and if by chance you do make it, you will be taken straight back to where you came from. Harsh, but in the long term this will save lives because people will abandon this method of entry to Europe.

I think it would be a good idea for all those who support mass migration to pay for it themselves, rather than pledging other people's money. How about all those supporting mass migration, in the first instance, volunteer to have their income tax doubled and in addition, pay a £5000 per year subscription. This money could pay for the additional burden migrants bring to our infrastructure. If it's not enough, the levy can be increased. No, I didn't think so. Everyone has their price.

It's very easy to nick a tenner out of someone else's wallet and stick it in the charity tin, pretending it's from you. Then when the person complains that you have nicked the tenner, accuse them of wanting to throw human beings into the sea. That's exactly what is going on.

My suggestion is to do whatever it takes to protect genuine refugees and people displaced by conflict as close as possible to their homeland. Anyone in a country illegally should be immediately deported.

 

[trex]

if you are in goverment, your hands are mostly tied by various treaties and international conventions that previous goverments have signed and adopted. For example, the French goverment can easily let the migrants invade the channel tunnel, our government will have no choice but put them in jail (£50,000 a year cost per person) or put them in camps or accept their claims for refugee status.
Even when/if we are out of the EU, the situation will remain same. We can't stop migrants.
When the migrants arrive in Greece, they are signed up then let loose to go where they want. That's the current situation that our goverment have signed up to. Nobody can send them back to their country of origin if that country is war torn, whether or not they are suspected criminals or convicted criminals. If the migrants want to march their way to Germany or Sweden, these two countries have no choice but have to house and feed them. Merkel has no other choice.

 

[tillson]

I don't think governments ever signed up to what is currently taking place. I'm sure the original agreements and treaties were constructed with good intent and for the best of reasons. However, that process has now been hijacked and is being used as a conduit to free money and resources by freeloaders. This is set against a backdrop of austerity where citizens of countries being invaded by migrants are becoming deeply resentful. The press, government and police in Germany are frantically trying to silence reports of migrant related violence and to present an image of harmony when the situation is anything but harmonious.

The point is, these historical agreements are no longer fit for purpose. Sadly, they have been hijacked, abused and rendered useless. These agreements are now working against us and will tear the country apart unless radical action is taken now. This can't wait, this is an emergency an in an emergency you do whatever is required in order to prevent the emergency developing into a catastrophe.

 

[trex]

there isn't much anyone can do. Just look back at the episode of Abu Hamza the Hook. His family got given a 5-bed house in London worth more than 1 million so he'll agree to go quietly.
Until the various wars giving rise to the current masses of refugees stop, there will be plenty to abuse the system. That's why I am so much against us getting involved with somebody else's war just to please the Americans.

 

[flecc]

Angela Merkel isn't insane, she is merely a politician with all that implies.

For example, throughout her career she was always an ardent supporter of nuclear energy, against the general tide in Germany. But when there was a chance she could become Chancellor and realising that would never happen there for a pro-nuclear person, she instantly swapped sides on that issue.

With the current issue, she decided that taking the moral high ground would be best when faced with migrants in poor circumstances. Why? Well, at that time Germany was increasingly being seen as the bad guy and a bully over their insistence on Greece repaying their euro debt to Germany, so the immigrant issue she saw as a chance of changing that image to a humane one.

Maybe that was a mistake, but we all make those.
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[tillson]

Angela Merkel isn't insane, she is merely a politician with all that implies.

For example, throughout her career she was always an ardent supporter of nuclear energy, against the general tide in Germany. But when there was a chance she could become Chancellor and realising that would never happen there for a pro-nuclear person, she instantly swapped sides on that issue.

With the current issue, she decided that taking the moral high ground would be best when faced with migrants in poor circumstances. Why? Well, at that time Germany was increasingly being seen as the bad guy and a bully over their insistence on Greece repaying their euro debt to Germany, so the immigrant issue she saw as a chance of changing that image to a humane one.

Maybe that was a mistake, but we all make those.
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I'm afraid she has demonstrated breathtaking insanity. Her act of allowing an uncontrolled, unchecked flow of people from an area where savages are known to be at large went well beyond a mistake. She has committed an act of treachery against German people and people in other European countries. She should be held to account. I think anybody with the slightest bit of common sense could see this train wreck coming and now it's here.

I don't know how this migrant invasion will end, but I am certain of two things. One it won't end well, and two those who caused it won't be affected.

 

[flecc]

I'm afraid she has demonstrated great insanity. Her act of allowing an uncontrolled, unchecked flow of people from an area where savages are known to be at large went well beyond a mistake. She has committed an act of treachery against German people and people in other European countries. She should be held to account. I think anybody with the slightest bit of common sense could see this train wreck coming and now it's here.

I don't know how this migrant invasion will end, but I am certain of two things. One it won't end well, and two those who caused it won't be affected.

I think you may be mistaken, since we have a precedent. Short of workers, long ago Germany encouraged migration from Turkey, virtually all Muslims.

Now overall, the number of German residents with origins in Turkey is approximately 2,998,000 or approximately 3.7% of Germany's population. One state alone of the twelve, North Rhine-Westphalia, has over one million of Turkish origin which is similar to the new number of migrants overall into Germany.

Germany is a very capable nation, they absorbed those almost 3 million Turks successfully and since have absorbed over 15 millions from East Germany successfully. The current million or so is peanuts to them with their huge experience in this area.
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[tillson]

I hope you are right, but I fear a disaster is starting gather pace in Europe.

 

[flecc]

I hope you are right, but I fear a disaster is starting gather pace in Europe.

I agree that this situation is extremely serious and presents a real threat to the European project. For many that's a potential disaster, for some others, particularly in the UK, a cause for celebration.

But just as previously within the EU, Germany will come out of it wealthier and smelling of roses.
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[tillson]

I have been waiting for the outcome of the Prime Minister's renegotiation of the UK's EU membership before deciding which way I will vote. Sadly, what he has achieved, pending approval from other member states, does not resemble what he promised prior to the general election.

I think he owes it to the country to be truthful now and to end his pretence that this is a good deal, IF approved.

 

[flecc]

I have been waiting for the outcome of the Prime Minister's renegotiation of the UK's EU membership before deciding which way I will vote. Sadly, what he has achieved, pending approval from other member states, does not resemble what he promised prior to the general election.

I think he owes it to the country to be truthful now and to end his pretence that this is a good deal, IF approved.

I'm still strongly in favour of remaining in the EU and am totally opposed to this renegotiation or any referendum on the subject.

But you are right that this provisional agreement is worthless, even in its present form, and will probably become more so after all member countries have had their say and made their amendments. It is not an adequate basis for a decision to leave or stay.
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[tillson]

I'm still strongly in favour of remaining in the EU and am totally opposed to this renegotiation or any referendum on the subject.

But you are right that this provisional agreement is worthless, even in its present form, and will probably become more so after all member countries have had their say and made their amendments. It is not an adequate basis for a decision to leave or stay.
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I completely agree about it not being an adequate basis on which to make a decision. I'm working on the basis of the Prime Minister finding it necessary to lie, gag his cabinet and to deceive the public in order to make his case for EU membership. That's a good indicator that the EU is not good deal for me.

I'd like to see truth and balanced information. This is s big decision and I'm immediately put of by snake oil salesmen.

What's wrong with letting the public decide anyway?

 

[flecc]

What's wrong with letting the public decide anyway?

I think a high proportion of the public have already decided, their decision being that this was always going to be a propaganda exercise by the PM.

Being pro-EU, I'm personally annoyed at Cameron since I believe he is very foolishly inadvertantly helping the anti-EU cause.
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[tillson]

I think a high proportion of the public have already decided, their decision being that this was always going to be a propaganda exercise by the PM.

Being pro-EU, I'm personally annoyed at Cameron since I believe he is very foolishly inadvertantly helping the anti-EU cause.
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You may not have guessed, but I'm leaning towards leaving the EU. I know I sometime post some deliberately provocative statements on here, but in general, I try to approach matters with an open mind.

I think that you are right, David Cameron is in real danger of alienating the public by taking them for fools. This will back-fire on him and people will vote to leave out of anger and frustration. This is not the right frame of mind in which to make such a big decision. Whichever way people decide to vote, it needs to be because it's what is best for them and to do that we need clear unbiased information from both sides.

 

[Lancslass]

I think a high proportion of the public have already decided, their decision being that this was always going to be a propaganda exercise by the PM.

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I don't think that David Cameron actually made the decision that he was going to wage a propaganda war.
Surely his aim was to get the best deal that he could in order to pursuade the British public to stay in the EU? The fact that he hasn't managed to get that deal doesn't seem to me to be due to any lack of trying on his behalf, rather a reluctance by the EU to give in to his demands. And his demands have been shown to be the demands of a lot of the British public - to stem immigration with all it's implications, to return some voting, judicial and sovereign rights to us from EU hands and to give us a fair deal within the Eurozone.
He seems to me to have worked damned hard in the face of impossible circumstances and I don't suppose it should surprise anyone that he is now making the best of a bad job, (which people will generally see through).