Leaving the EU

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
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A bit behind the times in the sticks it seems. Here in your capital city of London, well under half of the population are white British born, so we are all minorities.

And as for being born in Europe, we've always been, including you and me, since Britain has always been a part of Europe.
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You are of course quite right and London is not a place that I want to work or live in and to a growing extent, visit. This is mainly for the reasons that you point out. The only attraction that London now holds for me is its history, museums and iconic buildings. The people have gone, diluted and getting less significant as the mass influx of foreign nationals drain health care, social resources and housing.

For many, what we are witnessing with mass immigration is a bit like standing in your vegetable garden at the end of a long summer, admiring the produce of your work and then your neighbour invites other people to help themselves to the fruits of your labour. Inviting them to dig up the carrots & potatoes that you were relying on for the winter.

Fortunately, I've got private health care, but for those who don't, think long and hard about what you are voting for in June. If we remain in the EU there will be no future possibility of controlling immigration and I think that point is accepted by both sides. If we continue to experience the present influx of immigrants both legal and illegal our infrastructure will collapse and fail us. The national health service is falling apart now, today, and without swift action it will not be there when you need it in a few years time. When you or a family member needs to see a consultant regarding a critical illness, the wait due to demand will seriously jeapordise you chances of recovery. The range of drugs you may need won't be funded. This isn't speculation, it's mathematical certainty.

You will see graphs, pie charts and spurious statistics telling you that immigrants are but a tiny blip in the population. A blip which can be absorbed. A blip, without which, our health service would be understaffed. Nonsense, we have plenty of home grown workers, they just need motivating with the sharp end of a stick. The truth is the government don't know to the nearest two million how many come here each year. Take the Calais Jungle Camp. People continue to arrive, but the camp doesn't get any bigger. It's like a bucket, start to fill it with water, when it's full, you either turn the tap off (stem the migrant flow), get another bucket (expand the camp) or the bucket overflows (migrants flood into the uk). That's what is happening, the camp's existence creates the illusion that they are being held there, but the reality is that as one arrives, one enters the UK, the camp stays the same size.

Forget whether we will still be able to sell things to other countries, wherever there is supply and demand a way to trade will be found. It's been that way since the beginning of time and that will always continue regardless.

Immigration is the number one factor in this Europe vote and of course it is being surpressed as usual. Immigration posses the greatest threat to our security, health and future happiness since WW2. We have to take control and make sure that the immigration trend is reversed and the first step is getting out of Europe.

I think the outs will prevail. There is a lot of anger born out of being lied to circulating at the moment.
 
You are of course quite right and London is not a place that I want to work or live in and to a growing extent, visit. This is mainly for the reasons that you point out. The only attraction that London now holds for me is its history, museums and iconic buildings. The people have gone, diluted and getting less significant as the mass influx of foreign nationals drain health care, social resources and housing.

For many, what we are witnessing with mass immigration is a bit like standing in your vegetable garden at the end of a long summer, admiring the produce of your work and then your neighbour invites other people to help themselves to the fruits of your labour. Inviting them to dig up the carrots & potatoes that you were relying on for the winter.

Fortunately, I've got private health care, but for those who don't, think long and hard about what you are voting for in June. If we remain in the EU there will be no future possibility of controlling immigration and I think that point is accepted by both sides. If we continue to experience the present influx of immigrants both legal and illegal our infrastructure will collapse and fail us. The national health service is falling apart now, today, and without swift action it will not be there when you need it in a few years time. When you or a family member needs to see a consultant regarding a critical illness, the wait due to demand will seriously jeapordise you chances of recovery. The range of drugs you may need won't be funded. This isn't speculation, it's mathematical certainty.

You will see graphs, pie charts and spurious statistics telling you that immigrants are but a tiny blip in the population. A blip which can be absorbed. A blip, without which, our health service would be understaffed. Nonsense, we have plenty of home grown workers, they just need motivating with the sharp end of a stick. The truth is the government don't know to the nearest two million how many come here each year. Take the Calais Jungle Camp. People continue to arrive, but the camp doesn't get any bigger. It's like a bucket, start to fill it with water, when it's full, you either turn the tap off (stem the migrant flow), get another bucket (expand the camp) or the bucket overflows (migrants flood into the uk). That's what is happening, the camp's existence creates the illusion that they are being held there, but the reality is that as one arrives, one enters the UK, the camp stays the same size.

Forget whether we will still be able to sell things to other countries, wherever there is supply and demand a way to trade will be found. It's been that way since the beginning of time and that will always continue regardless.

Immigration is the number one factor in this Europe vote and of course it is being surpressed as usual. Immigration posses the greatest threat to our security, health and future happiness since WW2. We have to take control and make sure that the immigration trend is reversed and the first step is getting out of Europe.

I think the outs will prevail. There is a lot of anger born out of being lied to circulating at the moment.
Have you been to Malaga?? Do we really want all those Brits abroad back? What they've done to Spain is far worse that what anyone has done to London.

There are loads of Brits in the rest of Europe, that might have to come back if your ideas happen.

Borders are only temporary in the big scheme of time, if you get over that - your fear of the impact of immigration can go away a bit ;)

 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
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The national health service is falling apart now, today, and without swift action it will not be there when you need it in a few years time. When you or a family member needs to see a consultant regarding a critical illness, the wait due to demand will seriously jeapordise you chances of recovery. The range of drugs you may need won't be funded. This isn't speculation, it's mathematical certainty.
funding for the NHS has gone up and up ever since its inception. It's nothing to do with migrants but everything to do with advances in medecine and people living longer.
 
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tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
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Have you been to Malaga?? Do we really want all those Brits abroad back? What they've done to Spain is far worse that what anyone has done to London.

There are loads of Brits in the rest of Europe, that might have to come back if your ideas happen.

Borders are only temporary in the big scheme of time, if you get over that - your fear of the impact of immigration can go away a bit ;)

The big difference is that the Brits abroad don't tend to arrive in their country of choice clinging to the axel of a lory, or by slashing a curtain sider in order to stow-away, or by throwing bricks at the host country's border agency. The Brits also tend to take with them a package of self finance / support (a pension for example) or a skill which will earn them a good living.

This difference in mode of arrival gives us a clue. You are unlikely to find a group of British neurosurgeons hatching a plot to sneak into Albania by hiding in the insulated cavity of a refridgerated van. Whereas unemployed goat-hands from Uzbekistan may deploy such tactics in order to enter the UK.

I wonder how many Brits have emigrated to Romania in order obtain housing and welfare benefits or have emigrated to a North African country in order to obtain health care?

I've seen that map before and it says nothing. In fact, it doesn't say that much, I was being generous with my appraisal. It's a distraction from the real issue that UK residents emigrating and living in other countries tend to have quality skills or be self financing, whereas the far greater number entering the uk tend to be low skilled and have no independent means of support. My sister is a resident of Switzerland. Before she could even contemplate BUYING, not renting, not being given in preference to a native Swiss resident, a house, she had to prove that she had sufficient funds and resource to take care of her health. That approach by the Swiss is right, it's fair on Swiss people and it helps foreigners integrate into Switzerland. I'd love to retire to Switzerland and have a mountainside home, but I can't afford to live there and pay for Swiss health care. The thought furthest from my mind is to get into the back of a van going there, leap out on the border, "brick" the border agency and then ask the Swiss authorities for a home and benefits. All done with an ugly sense of entitlement whilst showing resentment against the Swiss people and their culture. How far would I succeed? UK nationals emigrating into mainland Europe is an entirely different situation to what we have arriving here in vans, lory trailers and more recently, inflatable boats. There is no comparison to be made. That point is precisely where the disaster is festering. It will rear up and bite us hard unless we do the right thing now.
 
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Gubbins

Esteemed Pedelecer
funding for the NHS has gone up and up ever since its inception. It's nothing to do with migrants but everything to do with advances in medecine and people living longer.
I just dont understand the people living longer idea.. Yes it seems to be the case, but we are also constantly fed the prospect of everyone dying younger because we are all obese!!
So maybe this living longer only applies to anyone over 50 now.
 
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The big difference is that the Brits abroad don't tend to arrive in their country of choice clinging to the axel of a lory, or by slashing a curtain sider in order to stow-away, or by throwing bricks at the host country's border agency. The Brits also tend to take with them a package of self finance / support (a pension for example) or a skill which will earn them a good living.
I'm not going to bother reading the rest of your post because this first bit shows a real lack of understanding of the issues.

Your confusing your issues, and therefore the solutions.

The people who arrive illegally, are not from the EU. If they are from the EU they can walk in legally. So the people you are talking about are from outside the EU, so leaving the EU won't make an iota of difference to the people you're complaining about.
 
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gray198

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 4, 2012
1,592
1,069
The EU has destroyed the economies of Greece Spain and Portugal which then gives them control over the people's of those countries. I am sure they will do the same to us and then we will be like the people of Greece who have had all dignity and self reliance stripped from them by unelected jobsworths in Brussels.. It was recently said by some French politician (their economy is brilliant) saying that we would be like the Channel Islands if we left. Would that be such a bad thing. They don't seem to do too badly . When I went to Guernsey it seamt very prosperous and thriving. The remainers keep giving us these dire warnings that the sky will fall in if we leave, but very little is said about the dangers to this country of being subjugated to foreign rule. Maybe the Brexiters should start putting some hard facts out, such as how many laws and directives the EU is forcing upon us which of course we follow to the letter. Other countries don't seem to be so subservient. Austria is shutting it's border and placing severe restrictions on who can be granted asylum. Try that in this country. I truly despair of the way this country is being run down by our politicians who are nothing more than highly paid lackeys of Brussels. We should vote out. Most of the people and organisations that want to stay in are not advocating it for the British people but for their own interests.
 
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tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
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funding for the NHS has gone up and up ever since its inception. It's nothing to do with migrants but everything to do with advances in medecine and people living longer.
I take your point trex, but numbers have to play a part, it's an inescapable reality.

Take my GP practice. 15 years ago I could see a GP on the day I phoned. I would be given an appointment for the same day. Today, I have the same GP in the same building with 1 more GP colleague in the practice. I now wait two weeks for an appointment. When I attend, English is not the only language spoken in the waiting room. I can't prove it, but the patients don't look as though they will be paying the doctor for the consultation. This would not be the case in many other countries.

I'm sure that there will be pie charts, histograms and arithmetic to tell me that I'm imagining this, but this is daily reality. This is what people are experiencing in their lives and people I talk to are incensed by it, the condescending charts graphs and complicated sounding sums fuel their further. Maybe they are not openly angry for fear of being branded unpleasant, but it's real enough.

I think politicians have seriously underestimated native uk resident feeling over this issue.
 

the_killjoy

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 26, 2008
822
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Whilst there is little dispute that most of those who come here from the EU do so to work, it cannot be denied that it is because of those that have come in that we have such pressure on housing.

And now Dave et al want the Albanians to join the EU.

What was it said when the Rumanians joined ~ only about 30k will want to come !
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,252
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I'm not going to bother reading the rest of your post because this first bit shows a real lack of understanding of the issues.

Your confusing your issues, and therefore the solutions.

The people who arrive illegally, are not from the EU. If they are from the EU they can walk in legally. So the people you are talking about are from outside the EU, so leaving the EU won't make an iota of difference to the people you're complaining about.
I don't mind if you'd rather not confront the reality of the situation. It's a human instinct, so understandable.

The EU is a major part of the problem. It attracts ecconomic migrants from all over the world. Many have nothing to offer and become a burden.

Leaving the EU won't cure the problem overnight, but it will be a start and it will begin to free us and allow us to start controlling borders. It will be a toe hold on the mountain of damage we now have to repair.
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
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Take my GP practice. 15 years ago I could see a GP on the day I phoned. I would be given an appointment for the same day. Today, I have the same GP in the same building with 1 more GP colleague in the practice. I now wait two weeks for an appointment. When I attend, English is not the only language spoken in the waiting room. I can't prove it, but the patients don't look as though they will be paying the doctor for the consultation. This would not be the case in many other countries.
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Your GP is paid about £176 a year to see you. That's not much money to cover the costs of premises and support. Therefore, they have to take on more and more patients per doctor, hence the degradation of service.
I have no problem with contributing a small sum per visit, like £10 to £20 and get a better service but our politicians will have much to say about that.
 
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the_killjoy

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 26, 2008
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I have no problem with contributing a small sum per visit, like £10 to £20 and get a better service but our politicians will have much to say about that.
The problem with this is that once you exclude those on a pension, the young, the unemployed and the chronic sick and then factor in the cost of administration the nett return will be very small.
 
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tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
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Your GP is paid about £176 a year to see you. That's not much money to cover the costs of premises and support. Therefore, they have to take on more and more patients per doctor, hence the degradation of service.
I have no problem with contributing a small sum per visit, like £10 to £20 and get a better service but our politicians will have much to say about that.
And that £176 comes from my taxes and NI contributions. Where does the £176 to see an unskilled unemployed immigrant come from?

Moving away from the statistics for a moment.

15 years ago: GP appointment within 24 hours.

Today: GP appointment 2 weeks.

What has changed?

15 years ago: Sparesly populated waiting room.

Today: Full waiting room. Shall we just say that a percentage of those in the waiting room today would not have been in the country 15 years ago.

This had nothing to do with £176
 
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trex

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May 15, 2011
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It was recently said by some French politician (their economy is brilliant) saying that we would be like the Channel Islands if we left. Would that be such a bad thing. They don't seem to do too badly . When I went to Guernsey it seamt very prosperous and thriving...
40% of the economy of the Channel Islands are from financial services, read tax haven and offshoring if you will. Current moves from the EU against companies offshoring their profit to such places will squeeze their importance.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
You are of course quite right and London is not a place that I want to work or live in and to a growing extent, visit. This is mainly for the reasons that you point out .
That point is precisely where the disaster is festering. It will rear up and bite us hard unless we do the right thing now.
With each post you are sounding more and more like Enoch Powell, and that is apposite for he represents the past.

Yes, the world has changed and I accept that you and the other Brexiters dislike it, but we in the London that you now dislike are the future. The vast majority of our near nine millions composed of hundreds of nationalities live harmoniously together, and very many of us are proud of that fact and of how we are showing the world the way. A century ago, the United States and in particular New York also showed the way with their ready acceptance of many peoples from elsewhere. Over the following century they profited hugely from that, just as London has and is still profiting from it's multi-cultural society, to the extent that we support much of the rest of the UK.
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trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
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Tillson, you seem to make a moral statement on who the NHS should treat. If we were to go down this route, then we would end up not saving prematured babies and force job seekers to do community services.
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
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No. I think we still have to keep EN15194.
 

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