Kit list for my trike - Opinions appreciated

[johneb]

I had become convinced that crank drive was the way to go with my HPV Scorpion trike, but having read a few recent threads regarding CD set-ups, I’m having second thoughts:

1) I have a muscle-wasting condition which means I need a serious granny ring to pedal unassisted on anything other than a gentle gradient. I often ride alone, and so must have the capability to get home under my own steam should any of the electric assist components fail. I know I could achieve the same effect with a wide-range cassette, but I like the idea of keeping my triple chainring up front.

2) I’m concerned about my ability to maintain the sort of pedal cadence that seems to be optimum for a CD set-up.

3) A hub motor would appear to offer a more relaxed ride (as d8veh has often commented).

4) Although I aspire to return to some of my old MTB haunts, I have to be realistic and accept that most of my riding will probably be on cycle paths with largely easy gradients.

So, based upon previous dialogues, suggestions and advice, I’m now erring toward a Q100H from BMS Battery. I’ve come up with the following build list and would be very grateful for an assessment of whether it looks okay. Have I missed anything? Better suggestions?

Motor/Wheel: https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/633-q100h-36v350w-rear-e-bike-motor-wheel-ebike-kit.html#/327-rpm-260

(260 rpm version in a 20” wheel)

Controller: https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/546-s06s-250w-torque-simulation-sine-wave-controller-ebike-kit.html

Display: https://bmsbattery.com/parts/670-s-lcd3-lcd-meter-for-s-series-controlers-ebike-kit.html#/137-color-black

Speed Sensor: https://bmsbattery.com/parts/550-speed-sensor-ebike-kit.html

PAS: https://bmsbattery.com/parts/504-pas-pulse-padel-assistant-sensor-with-12-pcs-magnets-parts.html

Brake Sensor: https://bmsbattery.com/parts/459-hwbs-hidden-wire-brake-sensor-1pcs-parts.html

Throttle: https://bmsbattery.com/throttle/850-new-thumb-level-throttle.html#/445-throttle-right

Battery: I’ll probably source the battery from the UK. Having read numerous comments about the variable quality of batteries, I’d rather spend my money on a decent one. I’m considering this from Eclipse:

http://eclipsebikes.com/product_info.php?products_id=107

Finally, I want to at least maintain the façade of legality. I seem to recall reading that BMSB will oblige by putting a 250w sticker on motors? If not, I’ll just get one made up.

 

[Nealh]

The Q100H is for freewheels, if you have cassette gears you need the C version, for the same size hub consider the better 500w Q128C peel off the label and apply your own plate.

Speed sensor not needed as the Q's have an internal hall sensor for speed.

You have three options as I see it for 20" wheel.
1. 36v 328rpm
2. 36v 201rpm version is labelled wrongly and actually 260rpm and run it at 48v.
3. 48v 328rpm.

For hillier areas then 260rpm will have more torque but less speed.

Mr Trike/AK and d8veh will be along at some stage to embellish a bit more.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

The first thing we need to know is what size rear wheel you have because that effects what torque and motor speed you need. Whatever it is, I doubt that a Q100 will be powerful enough for what you want.

If you don't want to put in much pedal effort and you have hills, I'd say that you need 48v and at least 20 amps, which is about 1kw from the battery. A Xiongda motor would so it, but they're free-wheel motors and they're quite wide, so not as easy to fit and you'd need to make changes to your gearing. Otherwise, something like a 48v Q128C would do it, but we need the wheel size to say which one.

 

[johneb]

The Q100H is for freewheels, if you have cassette gears you need the C version, for the same size hub consider the better 500w Q128C peel off the label and apply your own plate.

Speed sensor not needed as the Q's have an internal hall sensor for speed.

You have three options as I see it for 20" wheel.
1. 36v 328rpm
2. 36v 201rpm version is labelled wrongly and actually 260rpm and run it at 48v.
3. 48v 328rpm.

For hillier areas then 260rpm will have more torque but less speed.

Mr Trike/AK and d8veh will be along at some stage to embellish a bit more.

Thanks Nealh. I was looking at the motors ready-built into a wheel and, as the Q128's listed in that range are only rated at 201 rpm, they would rotate too slowly for a 20" rim (top speed around 11 mph?) and I had dismissed them. However, you say they're actually 260 rpm, which may change things.

Although it uses a freewheel rather than cassette, I'd chosen the Q100H based on the claim it has 30% more torque than the other Q100's. If BMSB will build one of the 328 rpm Q128c's into a wheel, perhaps that is the best option. Otherwise, I'll need to find a LBS that will build a wheel with a hub motor (I gather many won't/can't).

 

[johneb]

The first thing we need to know is what size rear wheel you have because that effects what torque and motor speed you need. Whatever it is, I doubt that a Q100 will be powerful enough for what you want.

If you don't want to put in much pedal effort and you have hills, I'd say that you need 48v and at least 20 amps, which is about 1kw from the battery. A Xiongda motor would so it, but they're free-wheel motors and they're quite wide, so not as easy to fit and you'd need to make changes to your gearing. Otherwise, something like a 48v Q128C would do it, but we need the wheel size to say which one.

Thanks d8veh. My trike has 20" wheels all round (I would have preferred 26" rear, but this one came along at the right price). Can't find my handbook at the moment, but I'm pretty sure it's 145mm between the dropouts.

I'm not worried about top speed, just help when I need it. I don't, however, want to turn my trike into a mobility scooter - I need to keep exercising to help mitigate the effects of my condition.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

If you have 145mm drop-outs, it's a good opportunity to fit the 2-speed Xiongda. Running any 36v motor at 48v gets you 30% more speed, which compensates for the smaller wheel size. The Xiongda only comes as a bare motor with its own special controller and display, so you'd have to get the wheel built yourself.

The 36v 201 rpm Q128c is actually 260 rpm, so is probably a bit faster than want you want at 48v, though it would probably be OK. I have no idea how hard you can pedal or what sort of hills you have, so it's impossible to judge.

 

[Nealh]

In the past d8veh and others on ES forum have said that 30% more power is not really true and in reality it is near 10 -15%.

Q128c motor wheel pre built either 36 or 48v.
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/769-q128c-135mm-500w-rear-driving-ebike-hub-motor-wheel-ebike-kit.html#/214-rpm-328/42-voltage-36v

 

[johneb]

If you have 145mm drop-outs, it's a good opportunity to fit the 2-speed Xiongda. Running any 36v motor at 48v gets you 30% more speed, which compensates for the smaller wheel size. The Xiongda only comes as a bare motor with its own special controller and display, so you'd have to get the wheel built yourself.

The 36v 201 rpm Q128c is actually 260 rpm, so is probably a bit faster than want you want at 48v, though it would probably be OK. I have no idea how hard you can pedal or what sort of hills you have, so it's impossible to judge.

Thanks again. I had considered the 2-speed Xiongda, as it would seem to meet my needs well. However, I've read in other threads that it doesn't like being rolled backwards. The Scorpion is a tadpole with a poor turning circle, so plenty of legging it back when turning in tight spots!

It is difficult to explain how hard I can pedal. I was reasonably fit previously and could manage most short hills on my MTB, albeit slowly. I'd say I'm now running at 30% of that. Most of my riding is for leisure on cycle paths like those in the Peak district, but I would like to be able to tackle short steep inclines on some Welsh routes. Maybe I should just go for it and take a chance on a CD setup.

 

[anotherkiwi]

My first choice would be the 36v 201 rpm Q100CST with a 48v battery and 17-20 A controller. That gives you 270 rpm and loads of torque because you are in a 20" wheel. Just get the motor and have it laced into a Halo T2 20" rim with Sapim strong spokes by a local wheel builder. This will be a nice light, strong and powerful motor wheel. Keywords for a trike -> light and strong.

What gears do you have on the trike now? The SRAM 10 speed? In that case mount one of these in 11-40 http://www.sunrace.com/en/products/detail/csms3 Be warned you might need to change the rear derailleur and it will be VERY close to the ground but you will have gears low enough to climb walls. Probably able to pop wheelies in 1st gear with a 48v battery in assistance level 5, or at least do burnouts...

Second choice would be to up the power and use the 36v Q128C also at 48v all the rest as above but with more weight and requiring a very well built wheel. I have been beating myself up to not just pop the Mxus wheel in my trike and ride off into the sunset but the more km I have under my belt the more I know that that particular Chinese rim and those spokes will never take the extra strain of being in the rear of a trike for any length of time.

I have begun testing the GSM at 48v (12S) on the upright and it is a night and day experience! So my third choice would be for you to reconsider and get:

- GSM with external controller
- 17 A 48v KT sine wave controller and LCD-6 from pswpower
- speed sensor, no PAS required (internal) from pswpower
- HW brake sensor from pswpower
- precialps BBS01 130BCD spider
- Shimano steps cranks

If you need a granny gear for peace of mind mount a 48-32 twin chainwheel setup and an 11-34 or larger cassette (see above). It will be very under geared for someone like me but may suit your condition. I would go for a 54-38 on a 20" trike, probably even more... You will have to find a way of shifting your chainwheel, a Sora or Claris front two speed derailleur will do the trick but needs an adaptor to reach out far enough for the BBS0x or GSM. I am working on that.

 

[johneb]

My first choice would be the 36v 201 rpm Q100CST with a 48v battery and 17-20 A controller. That gives you 270 rpm and loads of torque because you are in a 20" wheel. Just get the motor and have it laced into a Halo T2 20" rim with Sapim strong spokes by a local wheel builder. This will be a nice light, strong and powerful motor wheel. Keywords for a trike -> light and strong.

What gears do you have on the trike now? The SRAM 10 speed? In that case mount one of these in 11-40 http://www.sunrace.com/en/products/detail/csms3 Be warned you might need to change the rear derailleur and it will be VERY close to the ground but you will have gears low enough to climb walls. Probably able to pop wheelies in 1st gear with a 48v battery in assistance level 5, or at least do burnouts...

Second choice would be to up the power and use the 36v Q128C also at 48v all the rest as above but with more weight and requiring a very well built wheel. I have been beating myself up to not just pop the Mxus wheel in my trike and ride off into the sunset but the more km I have under my belt the more I know that that particular Chinese rim and those spokes will never take the extra strain of being in the rear of a trike for any length of time.

I have begun testing the GSM at 48v (12S) on the upright and it is a night and day experience! So my third choice would be for you to reconsider and get:

- GSM with external controller
- 17 A 48v KT sine wave controller and LCD-6 from pswpower
- speed sensor, no PAS required (internal) from pswpower
- HW brake sensor from pswpower
- precialps BBS01 130BCD spider
- Shimano steps cranks

If you need a granny gear for peace of mind mount a 48-32 twin chainwheel setup and an 11-34 or larger cassette (see above). It will be very under geared for someone like me but may suit your condition. I would go for a 54-38 on a 20" trike, probably even more... You will have to find a way of shifting your chainwheel, a Sora or Claris front two speed derailleur will do the trick but needs an adaptor to reach out far enough for the BBS0x or GSM. I am working on that.

Thanks for the comprehensive reply as usual, AK. I'm going to have to take some time and digest those options. Current rear gearing is 8-speed Shimano long cage XT and the derailleur is already pretty damn close to the dirt in bottom gear!

 

[anotherkiwi]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply as usual, AK. I'm going to have to take some time and digest those options. Current rear gearing is 8-speed Shimano long cage XT and the derailleur is already pretty damn close to the dirt in bottom gear!

OK that will work with this then which is what I have on the AZUB http://www.sunrace.com/en/products/detail/csm680

Real pain in the neck to set up with a front triple 48-38-26, it should be easier with the 48-32 on the GSM. On the other hand I have climbed +15% gradients unpowerd and 7% is almost easy and on the 2nd gear 26:34.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Thanks again. I had considered the 2-speed Xiongda, as it would seem to meet my needs well. However, I've read in other threads that it doesn't like being rolled backwards. The Scorpion is a tadpole with a poor turning circle, so plenty of legging it back when turning in tight spots!

Good point. I forgot about that. They've improved the motors, but I don't think it's worth taking the chance. That brings it down to the Q128c then, which should be pretty easy to fit. Use a 17 amp PSWpower sinewave controller, which comes with all the other optional stuff.
http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp?KeyID=dtpic-2016-3F-39N8.50CQE

 

[johneb]

Thanks, everyone, for your comments - hugely helpful and informative, as always. I'll go away and mull over the options and will probably post the final choice for approval (of compatibility), get my orders placed, and look forward to a new motor-assisted cycling season.

 

[johneb]

Thanks once again to everyone for your advice. I’d now be very grateful for any further observations before placing my orders.

The common thread of your suggestions is Q128C 36v, 500w, 201 (actually 260) rpm run at 48v. This looks good to me, as I have a 36v 17ah battery which I bought a while back. I plan to use this initially and replace with 48v when the battery (or my legs!) expires.

I know this would max out at a little over 14 mph at 36v in a 20” wheel. I’m not particularly worried about that from a performance perspective, but are there any other potential negatives?

As AK suggested, I’ll be buying the bare motor and getting it built up with a decent rim and spokes.

Leading on from this, the controller kit suggested by D8veh fits the bill nicely as it is 36/48 dual voltage:

Controller & ancillaries: http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp?KeyID=dtpic-2016-3F-39N8.50CQE selecting the following options:

1. Display: KT-LCD6
2. Throttle (probably won’t install it initially)
3. Wuxing brake levers. Am I correct in thinking they won’t be needed if I don’t fit the throttle (and stop pedalling when I brake, of course!)?. Would it be better to buy separate sensors to use with my own (Avid) brake levers? (Cable disk brakes)
4. No speed sensor
5. PAS with Dual Hall sensor

I assume I’ll also need a pair of torque arms, and plan to buy these from BMSB: https://bmsbattery.com/parts/450-a-pair-of-ebike-torque-arm-parts.html (M12). OK, or any alternative suggestions?

Have I got anything wrong, or missed anything else I may need?

Finally, any tips on shipping service preferences? I seem to remember reading that DHL are pretty hot on ensuring all import duties are paid!

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It looks like you have everything right. Dodging import duty is just a matter of luck. Now, you have something like a 1 in 4 chance of avoiding it. The internal motor speed sensors can be a bit temperamental, so it might be worth adding an external one yo your order just in case. Mine packed up, but the LCD can also pick up the speed from the motor hall sensors, which is how mine's working now, but it has the downside that you see zero speed when free-wheeling, so distance measurements are always off by about 10% to 20%.

 

[Benjahmin]

For torque arms I'd use these, they don't use a jubilee clip. I use just one on my front hub - bombproof.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Torque-Arm-Electric-bikes-e-bikes-Pedelecs-Stainless-Steel-Heavy-Duty-/252680077959?var=&clk_rvr_id=1438448257610&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=twenga&utm_campaign=twenga&utm_param=eyJlcyI6MCwicyI6OTcyMDIzNywiY2kiOiIwMzdmNzc1MmRhNjcwOTFhNDJiZTJjYjczNDBiMzFiOCIsImkiOiIyNTI2ODAwNzc5NTkiLCJ0cyI6MTUxODM2MjU1OCwidiI6Mywic28iOjE1MDAsImMiOjE3NzgxNH0=&rmvSB=true

 

[anotherkiwi]

• Wuxing brake levers. Am I correct in thinking they won’t be needed if I don’t fit the throttle (and stop pedalling when I brake, of course!)?. Would it be better to buy separate sensors to use with my own (Avid) brake levers? (Cable disk brakes)
• I assume I’ll also need a pair of torque arms, and plan to buy these from BMSB: https://bmsbattery.com/parts/450-a-pair-of-ebike-torque-arm-parts.html (M12). OK, or any alternative suggestions?

You don't really need brake sensors with that controller it cuts power as soon as you stop pedalling. When you are maneuvering the trike it is best to select assistance level 0 because if you bump the pedal by accident it can take off, just make it a habit.

What dropouts do you have? My AZUB has Rohloff OEM dropouts as standard equipment so I wouldn't need torque arms if I chose to mount a hub motor. Latest Rohloff spec says good for 130 nm so I guess they are a bit on the conservative side and you might be OK to 150 nm.

 

[johneb]

You don't really need brake sensors with that controller it cuts power as soon as you stop pedalling. When you are maneuvering the trike it is best to select assistance level 0 because if you bump the pedal by accident it can take off, just make it a habit.

What dropouts do you have? My AZUB has Rohloff OEM dropouts as standard equipment so I wouldn't need torque arms if I chose to mount a hub motor. Latest Rohloff spec says good for 130 nm so I guess they are a bit on the conservative side and you might be OK to 150 nm.

Thanks AK - I'll be sure to do that!

Dropouts are quite shallow vertical type in aluminium alloy lugs. Don't know what torque they're rated at, so will just play safe and get torque arms.

 

[johneb]

Do you think this kit may be a tad tail-heavy?

https://player.vimeo.com/video/244249579

 

[anotherkiwi]

Can't get more steam punk than that!