Kalkhoff Pro Connect. Impressive range.

[Tomtomato]

I have a Pro Connect 10 too, and I achieve about 100 miles with a full battery, using Eco mode (lowest mode) on pretty flat paths most of the time, with the very occasional boosts of assistance when climbing hills.

In term of range, hard to beat, but some effort is indeed required, being a crank driven assistance (unlike the electric hub-driven "moped" with throttle).

It's indeed the 250w impulse 2 version, with the 17ah battery. Assistance cuts off at around 17mph.

I have very happy with the bike, but I think the cheaper Pro Connect 9 is probably as capable, but has a much smaller battery for the UK market.

A possible issue with the Pro Connect 10 is that, being 10 gears, the chain would be narrower, and therefore more likely to break, given the high torque and strain from the Impulse 2 mid-motor.

However, 9 gears are probably sufficient for most people, and could be more robust.

 

[tillson]

I don't know how many times we've been through this. There's very little in a bike that gives a user something for nothing. There's two main ways you can go a long way on an ebike. You can either get a big battery, or you can use the power from the battery at a lower rate.

Isn't there a third way? Efficiency. If a motor is running at its optimum efficiency, which it is more likely to be doing if driving the wheel through a set of gears, then the energy stored in the battery will be used more efficiently, hence greater range. A hub motor, of which most are stuck in one gear, can be horribly inefficient at certain speeds. It more or less becomes an electric fire when stalled.

 

[Tim]

Efficiency is an area Kalkhoff's engineers are taking very seriously. At a recent meeting they told us that they're going for 'automotive levels' of quality and efficiency now. This is manifesting itself in much quieter motors in the latest Impulse generations, which is a good sign of efficiency through the entire propulsion system.

I remember some of the old planetary-geared hub motor bikes I used to ride (especially front hubs) would 'sing', sometimes very discordantly and with a fair bit of vibration through the handlebars, as the power output increased. Once up to top speed that noise had mostly gone, but in the middle there was clearly a lot of energy being audibly wasted.

Direct drives, on the other hand, are almost always silent.

 

[oldtom]

A hub motor, of which most are stuck in one gear, can be horribly inefficient at certain speeds.

Although I rarely find any argument with your posts Tillson, I find that statement a little contentious. I have to think you are referring to front hub motors as rear motors and the pedaller do have the benefit of gears.....unless I'm missing something.

I have always been a big fan of crank-drive bikes although I'm spending most of my time on a rear DD bike at the moment. So far, I have never owned an EAPC with a motor I could hear while riding but I have had the displeasure of test-riding a couple of bikes with geared motors and I was seriously put off by the experience.

Tim's anecdote of his experience of a geared motor very much reflects my own and while I have nothing against geared motors per se, I have been happy with my experience of both DD and crank-driven bikes. I mustn't discount the little Cytronex front hub motor either, which does a sterling job, again noiselessly. My partner, who weighs about the same as a box of tissues, can make her, (my) Cannonade fly when she hits the power button on that.

Tom

 

[Naileddownslug]

The plural of Kalkhoff is Kalkhoffs.

An apostrophe denotes possession.

"This Kalkhoff's battery lasts a long time."

It's a German brand-
Kalkhoffer?
Kalkhoffen?

Anyway, I'm loving my Endeavour Alfine S11. 1300 miles on it so far, mostly commuting. Pretty certain I wouldn't get 80 miles on it though. Longest ride I've done is exactly 50 miles with about 2,000 feet of climbing. Total time out (including stops) 2 hours 48 minutes. Economy mode for downhills and flattish sections, cranking up the power for the hills. At the end of the ride I had one bar on the range indicator left. The computer was saying I had 3 miles left in economy mode, all higher power ranges were reading zero.

The difference between my results and lowranger's are no doubt due to 1. My bike being an S pedelec so I'm trasvelling faster so more wind resistance for the battery to overcome. 2. I'm at least 20 kg overweight.

 

[mike killay]

A possible issue with the Pro Connect 10 is that, being 10 gears, the chain would be narrower, and therefore more likely to break, given the high torque and strain from the Impulse 2 mid-motor.

However, 9 gears are probably sufficient for most people, and could be more robust.

Is a narrower chain necessarily weaker?
If the side plates and rivets are still the same size and thickness as a wider chain, I would think that the strength is the same.

 

[trex]

It's a German brand-
Kalkhoffer?
Kalkhoffen?

das Kalkhoff for singular, die Kalkhoff for plural.

 

[Tomtomato]

Is a narrower chain necessarily weaker?
If the side plates and rivets are still the same size and thickness as a wider chain, I would think that the strength is the same.

I am not a mechanical bike expect, but that's what I have read. Also, several people have reported breaking chains on a Pro Connect bike, which is not great, when you are out and miles from home.

I guess the combination of high number of gears/narrow chains, derailleur and high torque is straining the chains, and that's why Kalkhoff is moving to belts and hub gears on its most expensive bikes.

 

[flecc]

Although I rarely find any argument with your posts Tillson, I find that statement a little contentious. I have to think you are referring to front hub motors as rear motors and the pedaller do have the benefit of gears.....unless I'm missing something.

Tillson means the common hub motor hasn't selectable gears, so whether front or rear can't run at optimum efficiency at all road speeds. They are only at maximum efficiency at one road speed, usually about 80% of the maximum assist speed.

The rider's gears do not affect that.

Having said that, although crank motors drive through the bike gears, the gear a rider chooses for themselves will only occasionally match the motor's optimum efficiency, so they also have their weakness.
.

 

[selrahc1992]

Isn't there a third way? Efficiency. If a motor is running at its optimum efficiency, which it is more likely to be doing if driving the wheel through a set of gears, then the energy stored in the battery will be used more efficiently, hence greater range. A hub motor, of which most are stuck in one gear, can be horribly inefficient at certain speeds. It more or less becomes an electric fire when stalled.

one of my commutes is a hilly, fast (bad shoulderless b road) 27 miles, I do it regularly on a 13 ah 36v hub kitted bike - usually loaded with stuff (all up weight often around 95 kgs), hammering along at 20 to 24 mph. I get 30 miles out of the 13 ah battery. ive don eteh same journey on a tasman with impulse 2 of a friend, and got slightly less mileage out fo what iirc was an 11 a/h battery - so more or less identical efficiency in my real world experience. im not sure why - I can see the logic of what youre saying, but it doesn't translate into real world experience for me. maybe its because electric motors don't deliver torque in a curve (more or less same at low and high speed), maybe its because as flecc says human judgement goes awry and riders make crank drives run inefficiently. maybe its apples and pears: I do the commute faster on the hub drive than crank drive, but its a racer versus a sit up and beg. either way, in my life there isn't a lot in it.

 

[Tomtomato]

I think this is the ongoing debate about hub driven pedelecs vs. mid-motor/crank driven ones.

From what I have seen so far, doing some market research before purchasing my bike, all premium/top of the range models seem to adopt a crank driven system (Bosch, Panasonic, Kalkhoff's own Impulse etc), whereas all the entry level ones are hub-driven.

Surely, this is an indication that crank-driven bikes must be better, either in term of assistance provided, or efficiency.

In term of efficiency, all crank-driven bikes need inputs from the rider, and therefore it's difficult to compare like for like.

From what I have tested, I much prefer a crank-driven bike, as it feels more like a bike with proportional assistance, as opposed to an electric moped with an independent motor from the chain. They also have the benefit of having standard mechanical bicycle components on most of the bike.

Of course, for people with more limited budget, or wanting to have a throttle and a lot of independent assistance, a hub-driven "bike" may be a better choice.

For cyclists looking for assistance (during climbs, or to increase their range), as opposed to a scooter, I think crank-driven bikes are a better fit.

 

[selrahc1992]

I think this is the ongoing debate about hub driven pedelecs vs. mid-motor/crank driven ones.

From what I have seen so far, doing some market research before purchasing my bike, all premium/top of the range models seem to adopt a crank driven system (Bosch, Panasonic, Kalkhoff's own Impulse etc), whereas all the entry level ones are hub-driven.

Surely, this is an indication that crank-driven bikes must be better, either in term of assistance provided, or efficiency.

In term of efficiency, all crank-driven bikes need inputs from the rider, and therefore it's difficult to compare like for like.

From what I have tested, I much prefer a crank-driven bike, as it feels more like a bike with proportional assistance, as opposed to an electric moped with an independent motor from the chain.

Of course, for people with more limited budget, or wanting to have a throttle and a lot of independent assistance, a hub-driven "bike" may be a better choice.

For cyclists looking for assistance (during climbs, or to increase their range), as opposed to a scooter, I think crank-driven bikes are a better fit.

yes, if one believes marketing hype all of that is no doubt very true (and wearing Armani knickers and Lynx while driving a little BMW is also no doubt scientific symptoms of virility). It all depends on the hub drive itself: I have a 36V 15 ah that provides a gentle hill of torque that allows me to exercise within my optimal zone while travelling further rand not being entirely hammered when I get to work (but trust me I'm much fitter now than before I started commuting this way). I've built a 3kw bpm hub bike and even that isn't entirely the moped you'd imagine (one still gets a workout if one finds the right kind of challenging terrain). these posts can be very divisive - the only rational thing I recommend is that whoever reads this should try a few bikes for themselves to judge rather than go by parochial views here.

 

[Tomtomato]

yes, if one believes marketing hype all of that is no doubt very true (and wearing Armani knickers and Lynx while driving a little BMW is also no doubt scientific symptoms of virility)

Well, if your argument is that a BMW/Audi is basically the same car as a Ford, then I guess there will be no convincing (usually from someone driving a Ford). There is surely a premium for the brand, but there are also some more objectives reasons to charge a higher price, in term of performance, build quality etc. There is also the depreciation/retained value, which means buying a more expensive German car is not necessarily a complete waste of money.

The Kalkhoff bikes for instance are more expensive than the Chinese ones, but then there is build quality, ongoing support/parts from the leading European manufacturer, associated warranty, lower depreciation etc, so not everything is down to the "badge" value/perception.

Clearly, the trend for all leading manufacturers is to move to crank driven systems. It does not mean there is no market for hub driven ones, but they are two very different propositions, and as you have advised, people should really test various bikes. If their budget is below £1,500, this would limit the number of options anyway.

I believe 99% of the Kalkhoff range is now crank-driven bikes, and there is no argument that Kalkhoff (or related brands from the same group) is the biggest manufacturer in Europe.

 

[selrahc1992]

Well, if your argument is that a BMW/Audi is basically the same car as a Ford, then I guess there will be no convincing (usually from someone driving a Ford). There is surely a premium for the brand, but there are also some more objectives reasons to charge a higher price, in term of performance, build quality etc. There is also the depreciation/retained value, which means buying a more expensive German car is not necessarily a complete waste of money.

The Kalkhoff bikes for instance are more expensive than the Chinese ones, but then there is build quality, ongoing support/parts from the leading European manufacturer, associated warranty, lower depreciation etc, so not everything is down to the "badge" value/perception.

Clearly, the trend for all leading manufacturers is to move to crank driven systems. It does not mean there is no market for hub driven ones, but they are two very different propositions, and as you have advised, people should really test various bikes. If their budget is below £1,500, this would limit the number of options anyway.

I believe 99% of the Kalkhoff range is now crank-driven bikes, and there is no argument that Kalkhoff (or related brands from the same group) is the biggest manufacturer in Europe.

to some degree I agree with you - the geometry of the Tasman I tried was spot on, I like magura hydraulic hub brakes - I liked the bike in fact.

there's two things - one is - as you say - whoever reads this, don't make up you mind beforehand - try all the various designs you can (if you don't you may well end up with something that you "think" is right and then keep on justifying to yourself (and perhaps the world)must be right while missing out on a whole realm of other possibilities, some of which may well - and with pedelecs are in my experience - really really great). before i tried the hub drive i got i was absolutely convinced a 36v 15A hub drive would be "way too weak for my use".

the second is that im not at all sure about the quality part: I've had great support with my hub motor kit (controller replaced at no cost at the beginning technical advice etc all really quickly) and its been completely reliable (despite regular abuse). I've read about some other users very different nightmarish experiences here with kalkhoff and bosch. i can afford a tasman, i chose the hub kit by preference (it isn't all about money). quality also isn't all about money: e.g. in the long run IMHO a shimano hydraulic disc brake (say a £30 one from chainreaction)is, for example, far more durable than a magura hydraulic hub that costs three times as much - one has to judge stuff on their own functional merit

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I think this is the ongoing debate about hub driven pedelecs vs. mid-motor/crank driven ones.

From what I have seen so far, doing some market research before purchasing my bike, all premium/top of the range models seem to adopt a crank driven system (Bosch, Panasonic, Kalkhoff's own Impulse etc), whereas all the entry level ones are hub-driven.

What sort of market research did you do? Of course if you only looked at premium bikes with crank motors, that's what you will find. Even your favourite manufacturer, Kalkhoffhave a range of bikes with hub-motors, or don't you consider Kalkhoff a premium brand.

Surely, this is an indication that crank-driven bikes must be better, either in term of assistance provided, or efficiency.

If you do your research wrong, you'll draw the wrong conclusions

In term of efficiency, all crank-driven bikes need inputs from the rider, and therefore it's difficult to compare like for like.

You can get crank-drive bikes with throttles. Loads of us have them. Time for a bit more research, maybe.

From what I have tested, I much prefer a crank-driven bike, as it feels more like a bike with proportional assistance, as opposed to an elecric moped.

You can get hub-motors with exactly the same control system and input as any crank-drive.

It seems to me that you're suffering from tunnel vision.

Also, in case you don't know, most people that have bikes with throttles rarely use the throttle. They nearly all have adjustable pedal assistance that they turn up and down just like you do. Adding an independent throttle to a bike doesn't have any effect on the way or the effort with which you pedal.

 

[flecc]

From what I have seen so far, doing some market research before purchasing my bike, all premium/top of the range models seem to adopt a crank driven system (Bosch, Panasonic, Kalkhoff's own Impulse etc), whereas all the entry level ones are hub-driven.

Surely, this is an indication that crank-driven bikes must be better, either in term of assistance provided, or efficiency.

It's no more than fashion and other irrelevances, the e-bike market has swung one way and the other several times over the years.

In the 1980s the early UK ones were crank drive, which then gave way to hub motors and other drives until 1999 when crank drives again took over the main market for a while. They then progressively lost out to hub motors and by 2006 the two remaining crank drives had been discontinued and hub motors ruled for a while across the whole market.

Then late 2007 second generation Panasonic crank units returned in two makes and the Kalkhoff e-bikes with them became good sellers. That was of course noticed in Germany and Japan and others started to jump on that crank unit bandwagon, first Daum, then Bosch, then Yamaha. Kalkhoff adopting Bosch as well meant that crank unit make gained from the Kallkhoff success in the market.

As the biggest seller, Kalkhoff saw the benefit of having their own crank unit, so adopted the earlier Daum design, modifying it to become the Impulse unit. And of course, China not to be left out now also make a choice of crank units.

So the current trend has more to do with "me too" than any considerations of what is best. Don't imagine it will necessarily last, as the history shows, the pendulum swings very easily.
.

 

[Tomtomato]

What sort of market research did you do?

I created an RFP document containing about 102 questions and issued it to the various manufacturers. I then created a balance scorecard with the responses (allocated scores). For the short listed vendors, I did some visits to their factories, and then tested their bikes in various conditions, including crash tests, stress tests etc.

It took me a long time. I guess thinking about it now, I should have just used a web search engine instead.

It seems to me that you're suffering from tunnel vision.

It seems to me that you are blessed with infinite wisdom. Unfortunately, not all of us are. I haven't seen many hub-driven bikes in the premium segment (e.g. > £2,000).

Hopefully, there is however some light at the end of the tunnel??

Also, in case you don't know, most people that have bikes with throttles rarely use the throttle.

What was your statistical method for getting to such conclusion? How many people were surveyed?

I apologise for calling a bike with a throttle an "electric moped".

 

[Tomtomato]

Then late 2007 second generation Panasonic crank units returned in two makes and the Kalkhoff e-bikes with them became good sellers.
.

So to summarise: the biggest manufacturer in Europe started selling a lot of crank-driven bikes and then developed its own system... So lots of people were purchasing bikes with crank drive: I guess there must be some reasons behind this...

Let me try an theory: maybe they liked the bikes?

 

[trex]

...
I created an RFP document containing about 102 questions and issued it to the various manufacturers.
...
.

if you had sent woosh a questionaire, they apparently sell as many hub driven bikes as crank drive bikes.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

What was your statistical method for getting to such conclusion?

It's not a statistical method. It's called logic. Why would anybody want to use the throttle when they can get the power automatically by pedalling, like you do? All bikes with throttles have a pedal assist system except a few DIY ones, where people don't understand how PAS works or can't be bothered with the extra work to fit one. Ask anybody on this forum how they use their throttle. You'll struggle to find anybody that uses it most of the time. We've discussed it and surveyed it on this forum several times. Also, I've looked after the test fleet of some OEM bikes at various shows. I never saw anybody only using the throttle except when I specifically asked them to so that they could see how it worked.

Do you think my statement about my use of throttles is wrong or are you just trying to score points in an argument? I pointed out your research as wrong because it is, and it's misleading for other people who read it and believe it.