I've narrowed it down to two! Kalkhoff & Wisper.

[the_killjoy]

Sorry David but when I e-mailed Wisper about a surcharge I was told it would depend on which scheme my company used, and when I said what it was I was told the surcharge WOULD be £100. I think that dealers who operate the cycle to Work scheme should draw attention to the fact that there might be a surcharge. It is somewhat annoying after having stretched the budget to the limit to find the desired bike to have to find another £100.

The other annoyance with the e-bike market (and one where I have some sympathy with the dealers) is the lack of control that the dealers seem to have over what is stocked, again one spends time selecting a bike only to be told that manufacturer isn't making/shipping that particular one for a while.

 

[flecc]

I know that you have posted about hills and such, but..I am too dumb to find it! And this thing about the K.A. where you have to put 50/43 percent of the effort, isnt it a lot more effort than you need with the wisper? Sorry but until I learn¿? to use this forum you are liable to very stupid question!

I posted the link for you like this:

Hill measuring

Just click it and you'll be taken to it.

Please ask any question you like, if an answer is needed, a question is never stupid.

The answer on your input I've partly answered against you question in the other thread, but here's a bit more information. Yes, the Wisper will be much easier most of the time, since it can carry itself along the flat or up the slightest slopes without you doing anything, just like a motor bike.

However, since those circumstances are when very little power is needed, the effort on the Kalkhoff will be small anyway.

On middling hills a break even point will be reached where the cycling effort will be the same on both, but on the very steepest hills the Wisper will become hard work and it will be easier on the Kalkhoff. In fact only the Kalkhoff will cope with the most extreme hills.

So the territory is an important part of bike choice, hence the need to know how steep your hills are. If you measure some of yours as advised and feed back the results, I can advise further on the bike best for you, but without that information I'm guessing the "how long is a piece of string" answer.

 

[keithhazel]

PS it is not just the VAT you save but the tax and NI as well. This is quite a saving if you are in the 40% bracket.

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if you are in the 40% tax bracket are you not already very well off ?...surely the people who are not well off..ie working class people should be the ones to benefit from the biggest savings as those on 1k a week wont have to scrimp and save like the working class amongst us would have to to find 1k for an e-bike...who says money cant buy you happyness...lol

 

[poppy]

I posted the link for you like this:

Hill measuring

Just click it and you'll be taken to it.

Please ask any question you like, if an answer is needed, a question is never stupid.

The answer on your input I've partly answered against you question in the other thread, but here's a bit more information. Yes, the Wisper will be much easier most of the time, since it can carry itself along the flat or up the slightest slopes without you doing anything, just like a motor bike.

However, since those circumstances are when very little power is needed, the effort on the Kalkhoff will be small anyway.

On middling hills a break even point will be reached where the cycling effort will be the same on both, but on the very steepest hills the Wisper will become hard work and it will be easier on the Kalkhoff. In fact only the Kalkhoff will cope with the most extreme hills.

So the territory is an important part of bike choice, hence the need to know how steep your hills are. If you measure some of yours as advised and feed back the results, I can advise further on the bike best for you, but without that information I'm guessing the "how long is a piece of string" answer.

First of all Id like everybody to know that aside from your extreme ability to make things clear for dummy bikers like me, you have a patience and politeness answering questions comparable to none, least of all K.A. Apparently they dont need to be bothered: Their bikes sell on their own.
I am sure that you have noticed that given my age and dirty habits I am afraid that starting off or steady pedalling will be harder with the passing of the time and, is the Pro C. so smart that really senses when your effor is flagging and come inmediately to the rescue? I have to admit that my W. clone is too easy to ride on flat roads and very mild hills: sometimes it makes me pedal faster than I really want, it sort of imposes its rythm on my pedalling! Is this a wrong impression?. Excuse my lack of English tech words!

 

[poppy]

Originally Posted by flecc View Post
Here's a previous post of mine explaining how you can easily check any hill:

Hill measuring ...............................................(This is a link)

On the battery question, the firms affected have both changed to much improved batteries, and there have been no problems with Wisper's newer bikes of any cutting out. The problems seem to have been related to the earlier batteries when with the most powerful motors, and battery advances seem to have solved it now.

Sorry Poppy, I am laughing so much I can hardly type.
Peter

I am glad your having fun on my account! I hope your laughting isn´t due to my English, but i wouldnt bet on it...!When you recover from your laughing fit, please tell this old fart something helpful in his difficult decision making, you know W.905 or K. A. Pro Connect. Do i have to remind you in this regard that I am an ageing weakling?

 

[flecc]

I am glad your having fun on my account! I hope your laughting isn´t due to my English, but i wouldnt bet on it...!When you recover from your laughing fit, please tell this old fart something helpful in his difficult decision making, you know W.905 or K. A. Pro Connect. Do i have to remind you in this regard that I am an ageing weakling?

I don't think Peter was laughing at you Poppy, he is far too polite a person to do that. He is someone who has suffered greatly from poor batteries and I think his laughter is to do with the indications of better batteries, possibly cynicism. He is also an elderly rider like yourself.
.

 

[flecc]

First of all Id like everybody to know that aside from your extreme ability to make things clear for dummy bikers like me, you have a patience and politeness answering questions comparable to none, least of all K.A. Apparently they dont need to be bothered: Their bikes sell on their own.
I am sure that you have noticed that given my age and dirty habits I am afraid that starting off or steady pedalling will be harder with the passing of the time and, is the Pro C. so smart that really senses when your effor is flagging and come inmediately to the rescue? I have to admit that my W. clone is too easy to ride on flat roads and very mild hills: sometimes it makes me pedal faster than I really want, it sort of imposes its rythm on my pedalling! Is this a wrong impression?. Excuse my lack of English tech words!

Thank you for your kind words Poppy.

The Panasonic unit in the Kalkhoff is able to sense you flagging in a particular way. It works like this:

When you pedal fast, it senses that and treats it as you getting on fine without help, so it adds nothing. As you find things more difficult, such as on a hill, and your pedalling slows, it senses that and starts adding power. When your pedalling drops below 40 crank turns per minute, it adds the full power that you have selected, which is equal to your pedalling power in Standard mode, or a rather higher amount in High Power mode.

This means you can force it to help to the maximum at any time by changing up to a gear which slows your pedalling to 40 turns or less per minute.
.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

No £100.00 surcharge

Sorry David but when I e-mailed Wisper about a surcharge I was told it would depend on which scheme my company used, and when I said what it was I was told the surcharge WOULD be £100. .

Hi Again,

I promise we don't charge a £100.00 surcharge for bikes bought through the cycle to work scheme. If you were told we do it was in error.

Best regards David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Is 45 degrees 100%?

I posted the link for you like this:

Hill measuring

Just click it and you'll be taken to it.

Thanks Flecc I've just read your hill gradient post for the first time and I think I understand it now. But is a 100% incline a 45 degree angle?

Best regards David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Language

Excuse my lack of English tech words!

Hi Poppy, I trust you are well.

We last communicated whilst I was in China!

I can also assure you that no one is making fun of your English. Apart from the fact that it is superb, most of us would be too embarrassed by our lack of command of any language other than our own to make fun.

Best regards David

 

[flecc]

Thanks Flecc I've just read your hill gradient post for the first time and I think I understand it now. But is a 100% incline a 45 degree angle?

Best regards David

Puzzlingly David, yes it is!

The reason is that the percentages are an expression of elevation over distance. Therefore if the elevation gained is equal to the horizontal distance covered and therefore 100%, it's a 45 degree included angle.

To get technical, there is some dispute on whether the rise should be
measured against the horizontal distance or the length of the included triangle hypotenuse, and different professional bodies do things different ways. I believe surveyors use the hypotenuse, map makers the horizontal distance.

For our cycling purposes measuring hills up to about 20%, the horizontal distance is quite accurate enough. To give some idea of the size of the error using "stick and rule", a 12% will actually be an 11.91457%, a 7% will actually be 6.98291%, so you can see why I don't think the difference is worth bothering with. Even a 20% will only vary slightly, the correct gradient being 19.611688%.
.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Inclines

Puzzlingly David, yes it is!

For our cycling purposes measuring hills up to about 20%, the horizontal distance is quite accurate enough. To give some idea of the size of the error using "stick and rule", a 12% will actually be an 11.91457%, a 7% will actually be 6.98291%, so you can see why I don't think the difference is worth bothering with. Even a 20% will only vary slightly, the correct gradient being 19.611688%.
.

That's what I love to see Flecc.... gradients worked out to 5 and 6 decimal places!

Seriously, thanks for that I have often wondered how they were worked out I could handle the old numeric ratios but the %'s always had me stumped.

All the best David

 

[stokepa31_mk2]

Puzzlingly David, yes it is!

The reason is that the percentages are an expression of elevation over distance. Therefore if the elevation gained is equal to the horizontal distance covered and therefore 100%, it's a 45 degree included angle.

To get technical, there is some dispute on whether the rise should be
measured against the horizontal distance or the length of the included triangle hypotenuse, and different professional bodies do things different ways. I believe surveyors use the hypotenuse, map makers the horizontal distance.

Ah those heady days of trig. Suveyors do use the hypotenuse as it is the actual distance travelled to incur the rise and therefore more acurate. As we dont cycle on maps I think this is reasonable

 

[poppy]

Thank you for your kind words Poppy.

The Panasonic unit in the Kalkhoff is able to sense you flagging in a particular way. It works like this:

When you pedal fast, it senses that and treats it as you getting on fine without help, so it adds nothing. As you find things more difficult, such as on a hill, and your pedalling slows, it senses that and starts adding power. When your pedalling drops below 40 crank turns per minute, it adds the full power that you have selected, which is equal to your pedalling power in Standard mode, or a rather higher amount in High Power mode.

This means you can force it to help to the maximum at any time by changing up to a gear which slows your pedalling to 40 turns or less per minute.
.

A bit uncanny for me this oh so clever bike! Ive still got my misgivings.....but it is such a nice looking bike! If I have understood you correctly I think I am going to be more confortable with the W. My current clone can do my hills reasonably well.... save the battery/motor/rolling/screechy problems, which I presume won´t repeat themselves with the original. And I am royally pissed off -pardon my Spanish-with K.A. disregarding my mails: Their attitude provokes me into more Spanish!
I ll let our buddy know that I was joking and assuming he was joking too. By the way, is my English passable?

 

[poppy]

Hi Poppy, I trust you are well.

We last communicated whilst I was in China!

I can also assure you that no one is making fun of your English. Apart from the fact that it is superb, most of us would be too embarrassed by our lack of command of any language other than our own to make fun.

Best regards David

Hi David! Flattery is going to get you everywhere, ja ja! I am sure that by now you know that I am considering your W. 905. Try your best at persuading me that I WILL NOT have the same problems with the original which i think I´ve told you about with the clone, plus others, like screechy brakes, sluggissh rolling, squeaky noises, loosening screws, breaking of the thingy that supports the front light, alarming vibrating of the whole bike, despite the suspensions¿? when the surface of the road isn´t too flat...etc etc
Always glad to hear from you. Regards.

 

[poppy]

I am glad your having fun on my account! I hope your laughting isn´t due to my English, but i wouldnt bet on it...!When you recover from your laughing fit, please tell this old fart something helpful in his difficult decision making, you know W.905 or K. A. Pro Connect. Do i have to remind you in this regard that I am an ageing weakling?

Peter: Be assured that I havent taken any offence, quite the contrary. Greetings from Covas, Galicia, Spain.

 

[stokepa31_mk2]

A bit uncanny for me this oh so clever bike! Ive still got my misgivings.....but it is such a nice looking bike! If I have understood you correctly I think I am going to be more confortable with the W. My current clone can do my hills reasonably well.... save the battery/motor/rolling/screechy problems, which I presume won´t repeat themselves with the original. And I am royally pissed off -pardon my Spanish-with K.A. disregarding my mails: Their attitude provokes me into more Spanish!
I ll let our buddy know that I was joking and assuming he was joking too. By the way, is my English passable?

Your English is great Poppy. The phrase 'royally pissed off' shows a superb grasp

 

[poppy]

Your English is great Poppy. The phrase 'royally pissed off' shows a superb grasp

Well well well, Doesn´t this forum have a great membership! Thank you for your compliment. The truth is that I ve always loved your language. But must try not to sound too pally, folksy or pedantic and academic. It happens with a foreign language if you don´t actually live there.

 

[poppy]

As i dont seem to get the hang of this forum, I am using several ways of introducing myself, and consequently I am surely repeating myself. i am Poppy, 59, lawyer, early retired, married, a son, Spanish,recent cyclist with a mean lazy tendency and fan of your language. I am about to buy a new e-bike after two chinese mistakes distributed in Spain. My English is what it is, so don´t embarrass me with technical jargon, please!
Glad to meet you all. Poppy.

 

[the_killjoy]

David, I will send you an email off line as I didn’t come on here to have a pop at anyone.

My posts have just been trying to convey the frustration about trying to buy an e-bike, which should have been an enjoyable process. Unable to easily see the bikes in the flesh I visited the sites, read the reviews and trawled the forums and decided at last to buy a Pro Convert as it has the looks even though it doesn’t have a power only mode, costs more than I can really afford and they have had problems with deliveries (which I believe they have now sorted). I visited their website and established they supported the Cycle to Work scheme, but it was only when I came to get a quote that I discovered the £100 surcharge!

No problem I thought, fall back to plan B and buy a 905SE City, again established that they supported the Cycle to Work. Then I was told that because of the fees charged by the Cycle to Work scheme used by my employer I would have to buy it through one of their distributers who in turn told me there was a £100 charge to cover the fees. Because of the different specs. given on different sites for the City (some showed it with sprung forks/disc brakes, some didn’t) I contacted ElectricBikes to clarify the details who then told me that the City wasn’t available at the moment and the only ones they had coming in were Sports with a rear carrier.

It’s not so much that the importers are inefficient (though a warning of possible surcharges would be appreciated) but that it is a fledgling market where they are not strong enough to apply pressure on the manufacturers to get what they want when they want it.