I've narrowed it down to two! Kalkhoff & Wisper.

[flecc]

i was wondering what you thought about this?

heinzmann sport

i've been absent after i cancelled my wisper 905se last year, still commuting by motorbike... still looking for the ultimate bike? surely this is it??

Not for me though. It is still the Heinzmann motor, an old fashioned design now, heavy, steel geared and a bit noisy, and rather higher current consumption than the best of todays designs, so restricting the range a bit. Add to that the high price and the only thing going for it as far as I'm concerned is the quality build.

And of course these use the illegal speed versions of the motor. Although you are unlikely to be challenged, it could cost you your licence if anything did happen as it's legally a motor vehicle which has not been type approved.
.

 

[emotivepete]

heinzmann sport

And of course these use the illegal speed versions of the motor. Although you are unlikely to be challenged, it could cost you your licence if anything did happen as it's legally a motor vehicle which has not been type approved.
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Aha! you fell into the trap. The estelle Sport is 100% UK road legal, 15mph, 200W and available as either e-bike or pedelec. Details on the website Heinzmann DC Motors UK distributor- estelle electrobikes powered by Heinzmann

It is also available as, and commonly confused with the Sport Speed model which is wholly illegal on UK roads, 24mph, 500W, but legal in Germany.

Both Sport and Sport Speed use synthetic gears. Steel gears are available for hill-climbing versions and are a little noisier - available on request. New digital systems include ECO mode for extended battery range and use Lithium batteries for lightness and extended range compared with NiCd and NiMH predecessors.

 

[keithhazel]

Aha! you fell into the trap. The estelle Sport is 100% UK road legal, 15mph, 200W and available as either e-bike or pedelec. Details on the website Heinzmann DC Motors UK distributor- estelle electrobikes powered by Heinzmann

It is also available as, and commonly confused with the Sport Speed model which is wholly illegal on UK roads, 24mph, 500W, but legal in Germany.

QUOTE]

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out of genuine curiosity, if they are illegal on the road, well technically they are not illegal without paperwork ect...what would you have to do to get them on the road legally ?..i know one thing will be insurance, so what catagory is that going to be, do insurance companies have electric bike insurance ?...and is another M.O.T ?...if so that will be a wizz to get through but who can do that ?, and is the other a driving liscence ?...so is it possible to get these "illegal" bikes ?..i have seen on e-bay 1000w kits where they say 2 and half hours to fit if you know what you are doing, so that would be 2 and a half weeks for me..then pass it to someone who knows what to do..

 

[emotivepete]

In Germany they have legislation for the Leichtmofa or light moped. This allows the bike to run on throttle only up to 20km/h and then as a pedelec if you want to go faster (up to 45km/h poss under the regs). This is how the Sport Speed is classified.

Here is my understanding of UK regs:

In the UK we don't have the light moped, only the moped. So yes you could legalise this and all other bikes currently running at greater than 200W and 15mph, but you would fall into the moped category and be required to wear a full motorbike helmet, as well as the usual insurance, number plate etc.

No-one is going to ride one of these bikes with a full motorbike helmet so I guess that's what kills it.

On the legality front, the onus is on the manufacturer to prove the bike complies with the regs, hence nameplates indicated rated power must be shown.

 

[flecc]

Aha! you fell into the trap. The estelle Sport is 100% UK road legal, 15mph, 200W and available as either e-bike or pedelec. Details on the website Heinzmann DC Motors UK distributor- estelle electrobikes powered by Heinzmann

Thanks for the clarification Pete. I'd assumed the questioners reference to "ultimate bike" would mean the high speed version, since with due respect, I can't see anything ultimate otherwise, there being many excellent bikes falling into the legal category.
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[the_killjoy]

I see that 50cycles charge a £100 surcharge for buying through the Cycle to work scheme, does anyone know if there is a similiar charge on the Wisper ?

 

[poppy]

Can somebody be more precise and mention the pros and cons of both bikes bearing in mind that I am lazy, not expert, dont mind pedalling if effortles and hate hills, of which I have plenty! Thanks. Poppy.

 

[flecc]

Can somebody be more precise and mention the pros and cons of both bikes bearing in mind that I am lazy, not expert, dont mind pedalling if effortles and hate hills, of which I have plenty! Thanks. Poppy.

The Kalkhoff driving through the gears can handle the steepest of hills, but requires 50% of the effort to come from you when in standard mode, or 43% when in high power mode all the time when cycling. You can expect average journey speeds around 12 mph, but those can be increased a bit by changing the rear sprocket, the amount depending on your steepest hills.

The Wisper (Sport or City) is not as good at climbing the very steepest hills and they become harder work than with the Kalkhoff, but on gentle hills it's less work for you and on the flat you don't have to put in any pedalling effort. It's average journey speeds will be a little faster. It too can be modified, in this case to give a higher derestricted speed, so keeping pace with the speeded up Kalkhoff.

So in summary, if your hills are no steeper than around 10 to 12%, either bike will suit with the Wisper just a fraction faster, but if you have seriously steep hills of 14 to 20%, the Kalkhoff is best. Both bikes have a good range.

Ultimately it's always best to seek trial rides first though, since individual's preferences and fitness levels vary so much.
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[keithhazel]

I see that 50cycles charge a £100 surcharge for buying through the Cycle to work scheme, does anyone know if there is a similiar charge on the Wisper ?

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why do they do that i wonder ?..i imagine they will still get the full amount and its just VAT the goverment dont get i think...remember i did say "i think"..so is the £100 extra to cover paper work maybe...doesnt seem to say "we want you to use this scheme"..more like "well done you have saved a good amount on this bike, we would like a bit of your good luck ...£100 please"

 

[frank9755]

A fundamental law of economics, I'm afraid, Keith! If someone sees you are being subsidised to buy something from them, they will want a piece of your good fortune, and if they think they can get away with it, they will try!

It's the same with Halfords, and other bike shops. They are a bit more subtle in that they don't charge a fee as such, but they don't allow any discounts, charging you the full list price. Many bikes, for example Dawes, are routinely discounted - often available for over £100 less than list price - so it amounts to the same thing.

When I bought a bike via cycles to work, I originally wanted a Dawes but ended up buying a Ridgeback with very similar spec, mainly because Ridgebacks are rarely discounted, so I didn't feel Halfords was being given an opportunity to take advantage of the scheme.

Really the flaw is in the way the cycles for work scheme operates. Ideally it should not be visible to the retailer that you are using it, then they would not be able to take their cut of the tax break intended for the consumer. By the same token they shouldn't have any costs or admin burden either.

Frank

 

[flecc]

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why do they do that i wonder ?..i imagine they will still get the full amount and its just VAT the goverment dont get i think...remember i did say "i think"..so is the £100 extra to cover paper work maybe...doesnt seem to say "we want you to use this scheme"..more like "well done you have saved a good amount on this bike, we would like a bit of your good luck ...£100 please"

I understand it's extra work for the supplier and some delays are involved as well. A straight forward credit card transaction is much easier, and online suppliers businesses are based on that model.
.

 

[keithhazel]

A fundamental law of economics, I'm afraid, Keith! If someone sees you are being subsidised to buy something from them, they will want a piece of your good fortune, and if they think they can get away with it, they will try!

Frank

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no better then playground bullies or looters.........im glad its all of them as had a nasty thought that id started a post that would end up with a long educated reply from scott putting me in my place ...so thanks for saving me frank...lol.

 

[Lordylordy]

In defence of 50cycles

I see that 50cycles charge a £100 surcharge for buying through the Cycle to work scheme, does anyone know if there is a similiar charge on the Wisper ?

Not that I'm best pleased with 50cycles at the moment - after a 6 month wait for my bike - but while talking to them the other day, yet again, they did explain that the £100 is what they are charged by the Cycle To Work organisation, which is in fact a commercial operation and not just a Government dept.

 

[the_killjoy]

Officially suppliers can charge up to 10% for the supply of Custom machines due to the disruption that is caused by producing them.

 

[HarryB]

Not that I'm best pleased with 50cycles at the moment - after a 6 month wait for my bike - but while talking to them the other day, yet again, they did explain that the £100 is what they are charged by the Cycle To Work organisation, which is in fact a commercial operation and not just a Government dept.

Halfords and the cycle to work scheme are commercial companies not charities and charge commission to sell the bikes for 50 cycles. They take a cut. Originally this was a 5% margin for the sale but 50 cycles said they only give £900 out of £1000. I didn't argue to much as in the end I got a £100 voucher from Halfords for "safety equipment", which in my case got me all the things I would have had to buy anyway eg Marathon pluses, inner tubes, mirror, handlebars etc. Originally 50 cycles said they would only sell the bikes at the retail price for the cycle to work scheme so at least they have backed down from that as it would have been more than a £100.

PS it is not just the VAT you save but the tax and NI as well. This is quite a saving if you are in the 40% bracket.

 

[poppy]

The Kalkhoff driving through the gears can handle the steepest of hills, but requires 50% of the effort to come from you when in standard mode, or 43% when in high power mode all the time when cycling. You can expect average journey speeds around 12 mph, but those can be increased a bit by changing the rear sprocket, the amount depending on your steepest hills.

The Wisper (Sport or City) is not as good at climbing the very steepest hills and they become harder work than with the Kalkhoff, but on gentle hills it's less work for you and on the flat you don't have to put in any pedalling effort. It's average journey speeds will be a little faster. It too can be modified, in this case to give a higher derestricted speed, so keeping pace with the speeded up Kalkhoff.

So in summary, if your hills are no steeper than around 10 to 12%, either bike will suit with the Wisper just a fraction faster, but if you have seriously steep hills of 14 to 20%, the Kalkhoff is best. Both bikes have a good range.

Ultimately it's always best to seek trial rides first though, since individual's preferences and fitness levels vary so much.
.
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I am not very good at these things but anyway id like to thank flecc for his answer. My problem is that I cant get a precise idea of the steepness gradient of my hills! And, havent been some problems with batteries dying on you or motor cutouts with the Wisper?

 

[flecc]

I am not very good at these things but anyway id like to thank flecc for his answer. My problem is that I cant get a precise idea of the steepness gradient of my hills! And, havent been some problems with batteries dying on you or motor cutouts with the Wisper?

Here's a previous post of mine explaining how you can easily check any hill:

Hill measuring

On the battery question, the firms affected have both changed to much improved batteries, and there have been no problems with Wisper's newer bikes of any cutting out. The problems seem to have been related to the earlier batteries when with the most powerful motors, and battery advances seem to have solved it now.
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[poppy]

Here's a previous post of mine explaining how you can easily check any hill:

Hill measuring

On the battery question, the firms affected have both changed to much improved batteries, and there have been no problems with Wisper's newer bikes of any cutting out. The problems seem to have been related to the earlier batteries when with the most powerful motors, and battery advances seem to have solved it now.
.

I know that you have posted about hills and such, but..I am too dumb to find it! And this thing about the K.A. where you have to put 50/43 percent of the effort, isnt it a lot more effort than you need with the wisper? Sorry but until I learn¿? to use this forum you are liable to very stupid question!

 

[Wisper Bikes]

£100.00 extra?

I see that 50cycles charge a £100 surcharge for buying through the Cycle to work scheme, does anyone know if there is a similiar charge on the Wisper ?

Of course not!

Best regards David

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

I know that you have posted about hills and such, but..I am too dumb to find it! And this thing about the K.A. where you have to put 50/43 percent of the effort, isnt it a lot more effort than you need with the wisper? Sorry but until I learn¿? to use this forum you are liable to very stupid question!

Originally Posted by flecc View Post
Here's a previous post of mine explaining how you can easily check any hill:

Hill measuring ...............................................(This is a link)

On the battery question, the firms affected have both changed to much improved batteries, and there have been no problems with Wisper's newer bikes of any cutting out. The problems seem to have been related to the earlier batteries when with the most powerful motors, and battery advances seem to have solved it now.

Sorry Poppy, I am laughing so much I can hardly type.
Peter