Isn't it time we had a standard to compare the ranges claimed?

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
The ranges claimed by some e-bike sellers are now verging on the ridiculous. My 36v x 10Ah battery-250 watt motor bikes are similar to so many others...I claim at average pedalling,average terrain,medium PAS setting a range of 30-35 miles,there are Kudos owners who have achieved 40 miles. At a recent show an e-bike seller opposite my stand was claiming 100 kms from exactly the same combination. Just to add a bit of fun to support his claim I suggested we had a contest-Duracell bunny style-one of my guys to ride the bike around the hall on a Kudos bike,one of his guys to ride his bike-same PAS setting,same track. If his lasted 30 kms more than mine I would buy the beers all evening,if not he would pick up the tab. He quite vociferously denied the challenge!!!!!!!!
Dave
KudosCycles
 

12xu22

Pedelecer
Jul 28, 2011
97
0
there are too many variables: a range of "up to 20 miles" may mean, if pedalled in minimum assist mode on a flat course by a 9 stone bloke. When a 15 stone bloke from hilly Yorkshire attempts to replicate this range he may be in for a shock ... the thing I find annoying is that the same bike can be advertised with different ranges by its respective stockists, so, yes, some is telling porkies somewhere along the line...
 

cwah

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 3, 2011
3,048
179
www.whatonlondon.co.uk
I think it can be quite simple to do that. The only concern is to have everyone agreeing on a standard.

I usually always ask the seller what's the max distance at full throttle (no pedaling) on flat road, no wind and for a 70kg rider. Once I have this number it's easy to compare.
 

kitchenman

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 9, 2010
1,309
7
Aberaeron, West Wales
Never believe no-one. Only one answer: spreadsheet. You wanna know what a Cytronex 36V 4 Ah NI-MH battery can do? Ask me or read my cycle log. I notice Flecc mention in another post a Cytronex 6 Ah which I don't think they do or I've got it wrong ... umm ... as I said .. never believe no-one (including flecc and kitchenman!) ... also, if anyone says to you now or anytime soon, "your jobs safe" then you need to start looking for another one quick! ....
 

steveindenmark

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 10, 2011
406
2
You would need to have the same rider, riding the same route, with the same weather conditions.....and frame of mind. On different bikes.

Any volunteers?

Steve
 
C

Cyclezee

Guest
A nice idea Dave and I for one would like to see it happen, but as others have said, there are a lot of variables.
The eternal question of range is just so difficult when there are so many different factors to consider, e.g. topography, climatic conditions, road surface, weight of rider, level of rider input, power setting of bike, tyre rolling resistance, tyre pressures, etc., etc.

I am not trying to be negative for the sake of it, but it would be quite complex and costly to achieve an agreed acceptable standard.
 

Jimod

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 9, 2010
1,065
634
Polmont
It would be good to see some kind of standard but It wouldn't be easy to do. Some people come on here and claim 80 miles then say they were on power level 1 and they did almost all the work. That's not an indicator of how far the bike would go with me on it. On my bike living in my area, which is very hilly. I can guarantee over 30 miles. I could therefore, also pretty much guarantee anyone would get over 30 miles on my bike in my area as I'm ALWAYS in power level 5 and the bike does most of the work.

If you claim 80 miles then say you were in power level 1 and you did most of the work, you'd probably be better off with a lightweight normal non electric bike.

Just for the record, I'm not about to try my bike in level 1 to see how far it would go. ;)
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,209
30,608
I notice Flecc mention in another post a Cytronex 6 Ah which I don't think they do or I've got it wrong ...
Quite right, it's 4.5 Ah, not 6.5 Ah. Got mixed up with the X-bike bottle battery, which misleadingly was for a while 4.5 although always sold as 6.5. Very confusing!

Range? How long is a piece of string?
 

steve.c

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 16, 2011
302
42
73
Exeter Devon
Range

Hi. As I have said before I ride my Freego Eagle (36v-16.5ahr) from Exeter to Tieghnmouth in Devon regularly and with some riding at both ends I get well over 40 miles on one charge and it says there is plenty of power left at the end (on the flat) and I can ride around Exeter the next day without charging and its very hilly on the way down & back from Tieghnmouth & Exeter is very hilly as well so top marks to Freego. Steve.
 

karl101

Pedelecer
Aug 2, 2011
87
7
Anyone here good at maths? It can't be impossible to work out a fairly accurate model..

We know a few things:

Power of Motor: 250W
Voltage of battery: 37v
The Ampere-hour of the battery: 11Ah
The Watt-hour of the battery: 407Wh
An estimate of the contributing power from your legs: 40% ??
Weight of the bike and rider.

We will also need a standard route with elevation and speed data. Or a GPS track with elevation and speed data.

Other points, on the bike no power is being consumed above 15mph, and cycling on the flat consumes less power than going uphill. The wind is another factor that consumes or saves power depending on direction.

The thing we want to know:

The distance we will travel before the battery is flat.

We could then use a computer to produce estimates that could then be tested against a real world cycle ride for accuracy. Unfortunately I've no idea where to even begin working out this.

Karl.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,209
30,608
Unfortunately Karl that still won't work, the main problem being the "250" Watts which is a purely nominal figure bearing no relationship to the reality.

Take two "250" watt rated bikes, one is set up to be capable of around 800 watts with instantaneous peaks of 1000 Watts, the other at the other extreme is set up to deliver just over 300 Watts with peaks not much more. These are the gross power figures, the consumption in other words, so you can see how widely different their ranges can be on a given battery capacity.

Another problem is the battery capacity, this not being a figure fixed in stone since it reduces as consumption rate increases. The figure quoted is very much down to the battery manufacturer's/supplier's optimism.
 

mike killay

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 17, 2011
3,012
1,629
Would it be possible to just throttle around a velodrome, out of the wind with say a 100 kilo rider or weights added to make it up. That would give some indication. I know from Fleccs post that this would not be all that much use because of varying peak power figures on hills.
But, it would give sellers some sort of level ground and enable them to openly challenge outrageous claims. They could point out to purchasers the limitations of the standard test.
 

neptune

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 30, 2012
1,743
353
Boston lincs
I think the answer could be a sort of treadmill/dynamometer set up . We would need to make some assumptions about rider weight terrain etc . Then different bikes could be subjected to the same test . It is a bit like the quoted fuel consumption figures for a car , where they talk about "typical urban cycle " or something like that .
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,209
30,608
It is a bit like the quoted fuel consumption figures for a car , where they talk about "typical urban cycle " or something like that .
And just about as useful/useless!

The most consistent where range measurement is concerned are the torque controlled crank drive units when without switchable power levels. The old Giant Lafree with the first Panasonic unit having no high power mode was remarkably consistent with different riders in different terrains. For example, "A to B's" strong rider got 20 miles from it's 6.5 Ah in a flat area, I got the same in the hilly North Downs at a very much older age and much less fit, and the experience of many others when the bike was new matched these.

The most inconsistent are the throttle controlled powerful hub motor bikes which can vary enormously in different circumstances with different riders. For example the very powerful eZee Torq 1 used to give only 15 miles for many riders as reported in here, A to B got 22 miles, while one rider managed a reliably reported 45 miles once. That's a 3 to 1 range variation! How could the maker quote anything dependable?
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
As I keep saying, this whole thing about range is nonsense. Some bikes get a long range by turning down the power. The less power the motor gives, the more you have to pedal. When you turn the motor down to zero, you have infinite range. Conversely, if you want to use a lot of power, you can't go so far. Most motors and controllers have similar efficiencies, althought the efficiency of the motor varies a lot with speed, so, if you have a motor capable of 20mph and you ride around at 10mph, you'll probably be making as much heat as motion with your motor and that will compromise your range.

So, there's two main factors which affect range: The first is matching the motor to your exact comfortable pedalling speed. The manufacturer has no idea who's going to buy their bike, so, any claims they make in that respect are nonsense. Crank-drive bikes have a theoretical advantage, but in practice your pedalling speed might still not match the motor, and pedal speed still varies a lot within each gear as you accellerate up through the gears, so in practice the advantage isn't realised. The second and most important factor for range is the number of watt-hours the battery can give. Many manufacturers' claims in this respect are also often unrealistic. Someone would need to measure the real-life watt-hours for each bike/battery.
In summary, the only worthwhile measurable for range is the actual watt-hours that the battery can give. If you want to go a long way without pedalling too hard, get a big battery and choose a motor speed that matches yours - unfortunately most manufacturers don't tell you the optimum speed of the bike for highest motor efficiency.
 

jasono

Pedelecer
Sep 19, 2009
217
3
Leicestershire
Maybe what BEBA should do is book out the MIRA test track or a racing circuit and ask an independent rider (or riders of the same weight and build) to perform the test?
Each company could prep their bikes, ie make sure they are fully charged, brakes not binding etc, but the test riders should be totally unbiased
I would happily volunteer my services! ;-)
 

RoadieRoger

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 8, 2010
726
200
As suggested by Jason find an Airfield with a nice perimeter road and get one fit rider to perform the tests . Lynda has a nice underused airfield near her called Merrifield , the reserve airfield for Yeovilton . I`m sure if she spoke nicely to the powers that be, it could be arranged . Just mention Tonaro to them or not to upset anyone on here *onaro .
 

funkylyn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 22, 2011
3,172
27
South Shields, Tyne & Wear
As suggested by Jason find an Airfield with a nice perimeter road and get one fit rider to perform the tests . Lynda has a nice underused airfield near her called Merrifield , the reserve airfield for Yeovilton . I`m sure if she spoke nicely to the powers that be, it could be arranged . Just mention Tonaro to them or not to upset anyone on here *onaro .

Well, actually, Lynda just happens to have a very good contact in the Royal Navy helicopter squadron based at Yeovilton......who has actually seen her TONARO and is very well placed to get permission !!
He will be here for dinner on Monday evening so do you want me to ask :D :D

I could volunteer to do the testing..... ROFLOL

Am I right in thinking that the Merryfield airfield is the one at Ilton ?
Because that is only 3 miles away from Ilminster.

They are certainly noisy when they fly over on night manoeuvres .......glad I dont live in Ilton where they do all their day training........

Lynda :)
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,209
30,608
Well, actually, Lynda just happens to have a very good contact in the Royal Navy helicopter squadron based at Yeovilton.....
As a dog lover I think you'll appreciate this Lynda. Many years ago my brother was the farmer just outside that Navy airfield at the end of the runway, and he had a working border collie named Scruffy. The other side of the airfield the farm had a bitch who inevitably went on heat from time to time.

When he scented that, Scruffy would take off for the other farm by the fastest route, straight down the runway and chased by the navy who would net him from their Land Rover. Then they'd ring my brother to collect him and he'd find Scruffy looking very sorry for himself, locked in one of the guardroom cells!

I well remember Scruffy, the farm and that airfield from when I used to help on the farm on odd occasions, and yes, those jets were very noisy just clearing the farm.
 

funkylyn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 22, 2011
3,172
27
South Shields, Tyne & Wear
LOL.....well, the only time I have been bitten by a dog Flecc , whilst cycling , was actually by a farm collie, near that airfield, last october......small world......wonder if they are related !

Of course....he could have just wanted a closer look at my TONARO :D

Lynda :)