Is there any hub drive bike worth paying more than £1700?

[GORDONAL]

Not until or IF I get it .......dont want anyone jumping in before me

Lynda

Spoilsport !!!!! a certain member has not sharpened his knives for a long while .... no entertainment this Sunday then . awwwr

 

[funkylyn]

I agree about the weight Lynda.. normally cheaper bikes are associated with heavier weight (i.e. more than 21kg)..and that's usually the trade-off. For such a high price, one would expect state of the art technology both on the bike and in the battery and something super light. Weight is obviously a concern for most owners, not only does it affect riding performance but also you have to lift and carry the damn things sometimes!

I read a site somewhere a few days ago about someones self-build project and he was focused on keeping the weight down..he said once you get to a maximum reasonable weight (eg 17-20kg) every 100g saved above that is worth a high price premium and that price increases proportionately. I think that's how many see or would justify a high price on an e-bike...has the manufacturer kept the weight down but maintained high quality?

Else it comes to like you said, after sales service.. are you merely buying a cheap bike but paying for after service you might not even need? How self-serviceable is the bike..how long is the guarantee on the battery and how much would a replacement cost etc?

Absolutely Paul

IF I change my bike it would have to be for LESS weight and MORE power, and I would still expect it to have reasonably priced replacement batteries and good after sales service.

I tend to be attracted to something that looks different from the norm.....and seeing as I dont have the budget for designing a 'special' one off I am spending my time finding ways of making mine look different.

This afternoon I have knitted a 'skirt' that fits around the back rack and hides the battery as I have decided to buy a rear rack basket and not panniers.

Which, believe me, is not bad going seeing as I am suffering from "woman flu" ( thats the really serious variant of man flu )

Lynda

 

[funkylyn]

Spoilsport !!!!! a certain member has not sharpened his knives for a long while .... no entertainment this Sunday then . awwwr

Oooh..."you ARE naughty......but I like you "..... ......must be too much of that Spanish sun.....please dont us it all up as I will be there in 4 weeks looking for MY share

Lynda

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I agree about the weight Lynda.. normally cheaper bikes are associated with heavier weight (i.e. more than 21kg)..and that's usually the trade-off.

Not any more. Don't forget thr new Woosh Sirocco Sport at 19.2 kg.

 

[morphix]

Not any more. Don't forget thr new Woosh Sirocco Sport at 19.2 kg.

How much does it cost Dave? That's a good weight for a full size? bike! My self-build 26" was about 20-21kg, but it did have a steel frame.

 

[funkylyn]

Not any more. Don't forget thr new Woosh Sirocco Sport at 19.2 kg.

That is indeed impressive Dave.

I would however be interested to know where and how the weight has been kept down ?

Is it for example due to the smaller frame size...or what ?

Lynda

 

[GaRRy]

Yes it absolutely certainly is, but I was trying to keep relevant to the OP's question

Lynda

Seem to be going around in circles. To repeat your comments on weight / support / performance etc apply to all bikes not just Hub bikes so they dont answer the OP original question. which is "Is there a market/need for Hub bikes costing more than £1700 ?" Thus implying that above this price all bikes should be crank drive only.

 

[funkylyn]

Seem to be going around in circles. To repeat your comments on weight / support / performance etc apply to all bikes not just Hub bikes so they dont answer the OP original question. which is "Is there a market/need for Hub bikes costing more than £1700 ?" Thus implying that above this price all bikes should be crank drive only.

OK...to make it absolutely clear.....YES

Lynda

 

[Deleted member 4366]

How much does it cost Dave? That's a good weight for a full size? bike! My self-build 26" was about 20-21kg, but it did have a steel frame.

£599

To Lynda: the bike is minimalistic, which is where the weight is saved. No lights, mudguards or rack. It could be even lighter if you changed the tripple front to a single, I never changed gear at the front in the 100 miles I did on it, neither did Steve on his ride. Get some lightweight pedals and seat, and you might be able to get the weight down to 18kg.

It's so much easier dealing with a bike as light as this one in terms of getting out of your shed and man-handling it (or woman-handling it) over those rotten railway-sleeper typr barriers that they blight cycle-routes with.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Garry,in one paragraph you have identified the reason for my post. As we are developing new models,prices tend to rise as we use higher quality parts, but as crank drive bikes are appearing now to be available at about £1700 (AVE XH3 or KTM Macina Bold) I am starting to think that at that level most customers would buy crank drive. It was interesting that the Storck models were mentioned in a previous post but notice Storck have now released a Bosch drive model,also someone mentioned Specialized but I understand that they are not continuing with that concept model and a crank drive will be released shortly.
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[themutiny]

I believe there is and will remain a market for high end hub bikes, but I guess it is probably small
I still love my 15kg Cytronex Synapse - I also love my mk1 Torq. They are very different, but I still use both weekly.
I would never buy crank drive personally.

 

[GaRRy]

Garry,in one paragraph you have identified the reason for my post. As we are developing new models,prices tend to rise as we use higher quality parts, but as crank drive bikes are appearing now to be available at about £1700 (AVE XH3 or KTM Macina Bold) I am starting to think that at that level most customers would buy crank drive. It was interesting that the Storck models were mentioned in a previous post but notice Storck have now released a Bosch drive model,also someone mentioned Specialized but I understand that they are not continuing with that concept model and a crank drive will be released shortly.
Dave
Kudoscycles

Dave

As already said I can see crank drives being the norm in the future barring some other major innovation coming through. However it is the whole package that matters and at the moment I don't see why a £1700 hub bike should be a worse bike than a £1700 crank bike (Different characteristics yes but better/worse no). I personally prefer a hub motor to a crank and while I am willing to accept I may be in a minority. Im pretty certain it would be a large minority. I do of course reserve the right to change my mind .

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I'm with you Garry. I don't see crank-drives as better than hub-motors in any way other than speed, but speed is capped at 15mph, which defeats that advantage. It's a falacy that crank-drives have more torque. Steve and I followed a middle-aged woman up a very steep hill on the cycle route yesterday without (her) pedalling. Her bike was the extremely heavy 200w Powabyke Euro with SLAs. We had a chance to chat with her along the way, where she told us that she had owned the bike for 7 years and was on her third set of batteries.

I think that we can expect to see many more bikes with EN15194 stickers using the Bafang BPM motor, which will give any crank-drive bike a run for its money. The way I see it. I can buy a really nice bike for £750, fit a BPM motor and 20aH battery for £450, so anybody in the trade should be able to buy then for a lot less and sell them for £1500 and make a healthy profit. I've ridden just about every type of crank drive, and as far as I'm concerned none of them can match the simplicity, longevity and sheer pulling power of the BPM motor.

I hope that Kudos have found a way to unleash the power of the BPM in their new bikes and still get the EN15194 certificate like Emotion did with their Neo range. If they have, they're going to sell very well.

 

[103Alex1]

I think that we can expect to see many more bikes with EN15194 stickers using the Bafang BPM motor, which will give any crank-drive bike a run for its money. The way I see it. I can buy a really nice bike for £750, fit a BPM motor and 20aH battery for £450, so anybody in the trade should be able to buy then for a lot less and sell them for £1500 and make a healthy profit. I've ridden just about every type of crank drive, and as far as I'm concerned none of them can match the simplicity, longevity and sheer pulling power of the BPM motor.

Would the likely range in a moderately hilly area using the equivalent of full-power mode from one of those ? Very interested, as it was the range that primarily pushed me into buying a crank drive. And my bike was considerably more than £2k. Pretty much dismissed all the hub motor offerings as none (seemingly) readily available had both the range and decent hill climbing abilities, along with computerized monitoring functionality and 11 gears (could happily take more for unassisted riding or riding above 15mph) of what I bought.

My purchase was at the lowest end of the range I'd have liked. Long (60 mile+) rides without access to a charger are hit and miss as to whether what I have is enough depending on how hilly the area is and for me that's limiting factor in terms of options. In practice of course I extend the range a lot by riding above assist level or turning it down but would be nice to take on the local "cols" without reducing your range by 60%. Surely no-one wants to have to carry a spare battery - they weigh a ridiculous amount - or to have to purchase a bike then pay again for the battery you want on top. It should be an option to get the bike supplied with a very high capacity battery as a substitute for the usual spec, not as a supplement !

I looked at every bike on show at the NEC and there didn't seem to be any serious alternatives from the hub drive market which would top the performance of what I ended up with.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It's the same old thing. There's no miracle motors. You start with a battery that contains so much energy. You can use it up quickly and get a lot of help from the motor and not go so far, or you can pedal harder and use it up more slowly and go further.

My BPM with 20aH battery will do an easy 50 miles with very little pedal effort even with quite a few steep hills thrown in - in fact it would probably do it without pedalling at all if you kept the speed below 15mph, and it cost less than £1000 and it has proper air suspension front and rear. The only equivalent Bosch bike costs over £3000. With the new Kudos bikes, like the Bosch, you can always carry a spare battery if you want to go far. Not so easy with a Emotion Neo because of the shape.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Dave,personally I really like riding the new Arriba and Tornado BPM motor hub drive bikes,the Thun-RT torque sensor in the Arriba makes it a very smooth bike to ride,the power delivery is intuitive,the Tornado is powerful but the power is more raw. Both bikes have EN15194 certificates.
Soon we will have the new crank drive bike,it is being airshipped at this time,now named Ibex.
The Arriba and Ibex will both be same price at £1295.00 so customers will have a choice between hub and crank drive for reasons other than price-both those bikes,aside from the motor,will have identical spec including Suntour forks,Tektro hydaulic brakes,Alivio 27 speed gears. The crank motor is a particularly compact package without the reduced ground clearance found on the Bosch system(excluding Haibike).
So a comparison review between Arriba and Ibex will be very interesting.
Replacement batteries (10,4 Ah Samsung) will be £198.00.
I made my posting because I am working on my 2014 models and it seems difficult to much improve the spec of these bikes, so the only reason to pay £1700 would be to pay for a known branding such as the Bosch motor-interesting times ahead.
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[103Alex1]

My BPM with 20aH battery will do an easy 50 miles with very little pedal effort even with quite a few steep hills thrown in - in fact it would probably do it without pedalling at all if you kept the speed below 15mph, and it cost less than £1000 and it has proper air suspension front and rear.

So do you have to fit it out yourself using a kit ? I'm interested in converting a bike to leave in Devon because the logistics of taking myself, my Agattu and the inevitable load of stuff up and down on the train = nigh on impossible proposition.

Actually have an old Raleigh bike there which has been riden once since getting it about 4 years ago (by way of cashing in credit card loyalty points after many years of spending !). It was probably about £350 new in those days and is in mint condition. Probably won't make it back down there for a while now but I reckon its equivalent is probably something like an "Urban" nowadays. Would this do for conversion ? The Kalkhoff and all its parephenalia have cost me a small mortgage and that bike would inevitaby need extras like racks etc fitted. so I'd be looking to save some serious money on this one.

It would mainly be used there for bombing backwards and forwards to the beach and about 20-50 miles round trip rides in the South Hams / Cornwall border areas to keep me fit and out of the car, but might be used for longer rides if the battery was up to it.

 

[GaRRy]

Not so easy with a Emotion Neo because of the shape.

Can confirm this is not true as I have done it. In fact with a modern curved back rucksack it fits quite snuggly .

 

[NRG]

Perhaps I missed this in the thread or else where, how does a bike with BPM motor meet the EN regs?

 

[jhruk]

Perhaps I missed this in the thread or else where, how does a bike with BPM motor meet the EN regs?

Perhaps they use the ‘alternative method’ of power measurement at the wheel in 4.2.7.2 of the EN regs. This appears to rely on measuring acceleration of the bike over 20m, with no consideration of the motor itself.

It would seem that any motor could comply with this with the right controller. Presumably a clever ‘soft start’ controller would allow considerably higher continuous powers.