Is there any hub drive bike worth paying more than £1700?

[morphix]

So do you have to fit it out yourself using a kit ? I'm interested in converting a bike to leave in Devon because the logistics of taking myself, my Agattu and the inevitable load of stuff up and down on the train = nigh on impossible proposition.

There are bike shops will fit a kit for you, and prices vary a lot but I don't expect it will be cheap. Probably at least £100..but maybe other members here know different. There are some specialist shops I expect or dealers who will do it for you, but you may have to make a trip there or else pay the courier both ways ontop.

Fitting a kit is not really that difficult, especially if it's a front wheel conversion which is usually a piece of cake to do.. the rear wheel can be more tricky because you may have to completely replace the gears, depending on how many gears you got...rear motors in kit-form are normally limited to 6-spd or 7-spd freewheel gearing unless you buy and fit a heavier more expensive cassette compatible motor which would have to be custom spoked into a wheel rim.

 

[tappy]

The whole e-bike market here in the UK reminds me of what the early Mountain Bike market was like when it first started. I used to work for ATB sales travelling the north trying to convince Real Bicycle shops that they could sell a Marin Mountain Bike at £300. The highest price that they felt they could sell was no higher than £150 - £200.. "£300 for a Mountain bike....no chance".. My, how things soon changed.
The e-bike market was (still is to a degree) heavily supplied with cheap, lower quality e-bikes and products. The UK market is gradually waking up to the fact that if you want quality and performance you have to pay a higher price. I won't go into the different business distribution model types, as this has been discussed many times here. We prefer a 'Service Lead' business.
Storck is very much a 'Function Lead' Brand and will always build it's bikes and products to a high level of function, the price then follows. The Raddar Motor is unique and designed by Markus Storck. The frames are lightweight and the highest quality and available in 4 different frames sizes. How many other e-bike companies just make one frame size ? (crazy).
For early 2013 delivery we will also offer the Bosch (crank) system so customers can choose either Raddar rear hub motor or Bosch crank drive.. The Raddar system will also be updated to 36volt.
The UK e-bike is begining to mature and grow and I'm very confident will contimue to do so. There are a number of very positive signs coming early next year. Keen an eye open for further announcements
Cheers,
Ian.

 

[morphix]

I used to work for ATB sales travelling the north trying to convince Real Bicycle shops that they could sell a Marin Mountain Bike at £300.
Ian.

Interesting. ATB Sales own the Mezzo brand and design eh? Did you work for them when they were marketing it? I'm guessing not as it's a relatively new addition to their inventory? Do you know anything about how it's selling though with your connections? I'm curious what's going on what that company..their website is a real mess and half-finished for years, with broken links and images, they're very hard to contact etc..it looks like a half-assed operation no real serious drive or money behind the marketing. Yet they have a really fantastic bike in the Mezzo, world-class, but it doesn't seem to be popular and selling like Brompton..in fact it seems fewer and fewer retailers are stocking it and some have dropped it..yet the price is very competitive and matches the Dahon JetStream P8 but offers more bike for your money. I noticed it is popular in Japan though where it's licensed and sold under a different name I think (Ori)

 

[flecc]

I've ridden just about every type of crank drive, and as far as I'm concerned none of them can match the simplicity, longevity and sheer pulling power of the BPM motor.

I wouldn't be so confident about the longevity, I haven't seen hub motor e-bikes in regular use lasting a decade without repairs in the way the Panasonic units have so often done.

The trouble is that the comparison is not like for like, for that to be true the controller, interconnections and any torque sensing/pedelec parts have to included, and also the battery interconnections when comparing with the Panasonic and Impulse units.

Overall, users of the better crank drive units enjoy far better reliability than those with hub motor bikes.
.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

So do you have to fit it out yourself using a kit ? I'm interested in converting a bike to leave in Devon because the logistics of taking myself, my Agattu and the inevitable load of stuff up and down on the train = nigh on impossible proposition.

The BPM kit from BMSBattery is about £200. A 20aH battery is about £250. The 500w rear one is probably the best of the bunch. You also need a free-wheel with 11T top gear and one or two torque arms - about £40 extra. This set-up will give you enough climbing power to blitz any Bosch up a steep hill, and give a range of about 50 miles of lazy pedalling in medium hilly terrain.

In principle fitting a kit involves: Dremmeling your drop-outs a bit deeper to get the bigger axle in; dishing the wheel by loosening the spoke nipples on one side and tightening the other to get the wheel central; a bit of wiring/soldering; a bit of jiggery pokery to get everything to fit on the handlebars depending on what you already have.

If you're serious about one of these kits, ask again when you want to propose a donor bike/budget because there's lots of ifs and buts that some of us found out the hard way.

 

[morphix]

Flecc is there a tradeoff though between the lower cost of hub motor kits and the crank drive? If the hub motor fails once in the lifetime of a crank, it's still cheaper to replace? I wonder where the trade-off point is...3x replacement?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I wouldn't be so confident about the longevity, I haven't seen hub motor e-bikes in regular use lasting a decade without repairs in the way the Panasonic units have so often done.

The trouble is that the comparison is not like for like, for that to be true the controller, interconnections and any torque sensing/pedelec parts have to included, and also the battery interconnections when comparing with the Panasonic and Impulse units.

Overall, users of the better crank drive units enjoy far better reliability than those with hub motor bikes.
.

I read somewhere that the Bafang life-cycle test is 40,000 miles. I can't see anything in the motor that would wear out in a normal bike lifetime, and even if it did, you can have the motor completely disassembled for servicing on your bench in about 15 minutes including removing the wheel from the bike. Spares are readily available and cheap, or you can buy the whole motor for about £100 inc delivery. How much does a Panasonic drive sprocket cost and how long does it last? And don't forget about the wear on the gears. I seem to remember a guy posting his 8000 miles with a Panasonic, where he had to replace rear derailleur and gears twice in that time. The BPM motor is simple and robust as far as I'm concerned.

 

[tappy]

Interesting. ATB Sales own the Mezzo brand and design eh? Did you work for them when they were marketing it? I'm guessing not as it's a relatively new addition to their inventory? Do you know anything about how it's selling though with your connections? I'm curious what's going on what that company..their website is a real mess and half-finished for years, with broken links and images, they're very hard to contact etc..it looks like a half-assed operation no real serious drive or money behind the marketing. Yet they have a really fantastic bike in the Mezzo, world-class, but it doesn't seem to be popular and selling like Brompton..in fact it seems fewer and fewer retailers are stocking it and some have dropped it..yet the price is very competitive and matches the Dahon JetStream P8 but offers more bike for your money. I noticed it is popular in Japan though where it's licensed and sold under a different name I think (Ori)

I worked for ATB Sales back in 1984 long before the Mezzo brand. I was the Northern Sales Rep for 9 years with Marin Mountain Bikes, I then set up SCOTT Sports in 1994 and ran that for 15 years. I still have friends and contacts at ATB Sales but have not really followed the latest progress of their Mezzo brand. Probably worth giving them a call ?
Cheers,
Ian

 

[morphix]

I worked for ATB Sales back in 1984 long before the Mezzo brand. I was the Northern Sales Rep for 9 years with Marin Mountain Bikes, I then set up SCOTT Sports in 1994 and ran that for 15 years. I still have friends and contacts at ATB Sales but have not really followed the latest progress of their Mezzo brand. Probably worth giving them a call ?
Cheers,
Ian

Would be interested to know what you can find out! I wonder if they're struggling with it that's how it looks. I did contact them to ask some advice and mentioned I was converting a Mezzo d9 to electric which nobody seems to have ever done before..they were very interested and asked me to send details and pics for their website.

I noticed they have just brought out a new upgraded model of the two Mezzo models which includes a more modern curved hydroformed frame and 10-speed gears for the cassette model, so they must be committed to it, but it's strange how they haven't invested in a proper website etc.

 

[morphix]

The BPM motor is simple and robust as far as I'm concerned.

Simple is often better. Maybe there is some trade-off somewhere in performance for some users, but it looks like the hub wins for cost and efficiency too?

 

[flecc]

I read somewhere that the Bafang life-cycle test is 40,000 miles. I can't see anything in the motor that would wear out in a normal bike lifetime, and even if it did, you can have the motor completely disassembled for servicing on your bench in about 15 minutes including removing the wheel from the bike. Spares are readily available and cheap, or you can buy the whole motor for about £100 inc delivery. How much does a Panasonic drive sprocket cost and how long does it last? And don't forget about the wear on the gears. I seem to remember a guy posting his 8000 miles with a Panasonic, where he had to replace rear derailleur and gears twice in that time. The BPM motor is simple and robust as far as I'm concerned.

Largely true Dave, but things like the internal gears don't need replacing on the crank drive units. A high proportion of the crank drive bikes ever sold have used hub gears, which despite fears have been very reliable over time, and that derailleur case seems unusual to me.

We only have to see the problems that crop up in here with hub motor bikes to see that the better crank drive bikes are more reliable over time. I'm speaking of water ingress to most parts, corrosion, brake lever cutout problems, pedelec sensor damage or displacement, various connection losses and motor cable damage, motor internal gears wear and failure. While it's true that to some these are easy to fix, it's not true for many. The crank drive bike riders only have to maintain the bike parts including the sprockets, and it's often easier to do that without a hub motor and connections to deal with.

The point Morphix makes is true of course, the crank drive advantages mostly cost much more at present, and for those competent at maintaining the systems, hub motor systems are more economic and also more flexible in some respects. For the average Joe or Jill though, I'd always recommend a good crank drive, giving less trouble and that which occurs easily fixed by any bike shop.
.

 

[NRG]

Perhaps they use the ‘alternative method’ of power measurement at the wheel in 4.2.7.2 of the EN regs. This appears to rely on measuring acceleration of the bike over 20m, with no consideration of the motor itself.

It would seem that any motor could comply with this with the right controller. Presumably a clever ‘soft start’ controller would allow considerably higher continuous powers.

Even testing using the method in 4.2.7.2 required the motor to produce no more power than 250w +10% under the current regs. Now, I'm aware this may change in the future but today even with a current limiter / soft start / current map or whatever you must limit amps. IF this is the case why use a BPM which is large and heavy and the regs can be met with a smaller and lighter motor...maybe I'm being naive

 

[tappy]

Would be interested to know what you can find out! I wonder if they're struggling with it that's how it looks. I did contact them to ask some advice and mentioned I was converting a Mezzo d9 to electric which nobody seems to have ever done before..they were very interested and asked me to send details and pics for their website.

To be honest, it's probably worth you contacting ATB Sales yourself to get this information

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Even testing using the method in 4.2.7.2 required the motor to produce no more power than 250w +10% under the current regs. Now, I'm aware this may change in the future but today even with a current limiter / soft start / current map or whatever you must limit amps. IF this is the case why use a BPM which is large and heavy and the regs can be met with a smaller and lighter motor...maybe I'm being naive

Because it has massive torque and a lot of power, so if anybody can figure a way to get a EN15194 certificate, as has been achieved by BH Emotion, then they have a big sales advantage. You only have to ride one to see what I mean. It's a similar situation with the Heinzman motors, which can somehow run legally at 28amps with 36v = over 1KW fromthe battery. They also climb pretty well - not surprisingly.

 

[flecc]

It's a similar situation with the Heinzman motors, which can somehow run legally at 28amps with 36v = over 1KW fromthe battery. They also climb pretty well - not surprisingly.

Yes, we had exactly the same situation with the previous eZee Torq model which was accepted as legal, though that used it's high power for speed rather than climb ability.

 

[morphix]

To be honest, it's probably worth you contacting ATB Sales yourself to get this information

I doubt they will share inside info with the likes of me on their Mezzo sales and marketing efforts, but it's worth a try I suppose ;-) I'll ask them if I can buy some shares/inject some capital, maybe that will help? lol

 

[Deleted member 4366]

We only have to see the problems that crop up in here with hub motor bikes to see that the better crank drive bikes are more reliable over time. I'm speaking of water ingress to most parts, corrosion, brake lever cutout problems, pedelec sensor damage or displacement, various connection losses and motor cable damage, motor internal gears wear and failure. While it's true that to some these are easy to fix, it's not true for many.
.

Those things are nothing to do with the type of motor. That' the external control system chosen by the manufacturer. The new Kudos has a Thun torque sensor, and I guess no brake switches. Water ingress, of which I can only think of one example on this forum in the last 2 years, was caused by incorrect amateur installation, and if there's any others, then cause would probably be the same even if done by the manufacturer.

This business of replacing internal gears is also a fallacy. Search back through this forum through all the posts to see if you can find an example of worn gears, where there's thousands of owners of these bikes that do huge mileages without problems from the motor. I can only remember one, and that was on an over-volted Cyclamatic with soldered shunt.

On my main BPM, i've done about 3500 miles so far and it's smooth as silk. I'm sure it'll last longer than me. I haven't yet come accross a hill that it couldn't get up without pedalling. At every show, I try every bike to see if I can find a better one. Luckily for me money is not an issue, but I haven't found anything that can beat it on matching the performance that I want. When I do, I'll buy it.

 

[morphix]

Those things are nothing to do with the type of motor. That' the external control system chosen by the manufacturer. The new Kudos has a Thun torque sensor, and I guess no brake switches. Water ingress, of which I can only think of one example on this forum in the last 2 years, was caused by incorrect amateur installation, and if there's any others, then cause would probably be the same even if done by the manufacturer.

That guy on here recently who had water in his motor had left his bike outside in the rain..for months!!!

 

[flecc]

Those things are nothing to do with the type of motor. That' the external control system chosen by the manufacturer. The new Kudos has a Thun torque sensor, and I guess no brake switches. Water ingress, of which I can only think of one example on this forum in the last 2 years, was caused by incorrect amateur installation, and if there's any others, then cause would probably be the same even if done by the manufacturer.

Agreed, but my comments were on the like-for-like basis since you were comparing the BPM motor with the crank drives. That isn't like-for-like, just a motor doesn't compare with the all-in motor, controller, torque sensor, pedelec control and internal wiring and connections of a crank drive unit.

I think we are at cross purposes here, risking comparing apples with oranges. A hub motor alone cannot be fairly compared with a crank drive unit.
.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

That guy on here recently who had water in his motor had left his bike outside in the rain..for months!!!

Yes, I forgot about that one, but even then we've no idea about whether it had been interfered with. It's easy to re-route the wiring wrongly if you take the wheel off to fix a pucture oy whatever.