Is anyone offering an e-bike with type approval and throttle?

[Kudoscycles]

At the NEC cycle show i asked a few of my competitors as to what they are intending after 15 mph throttles are banned after 1 January 2016( note we will still be able to sell e-bikes with 4 mph throttles),the response seemed very negative,mostly 'don't know'.
I only have 1 bike with a full speed throttle,my Kudos Secret,and fortunately not many left now,so probably sold out before January.
I have tried,admittedly not thoroughly,to find out how we can type approve these bikes,our government have not made it easy to seek the info as to how to type approve,never mind the type approval process itself. I suspect that most of the current e-bike suppliers will not bother,which is a shame for disabled users.
Just wondered what pedelec forum members intend to do after January and have any had a positive response from any suppliers about seeking type approval.
Some of the big European e-bike suppliers have bikes with type approval but the systems used do not easily lend themselves to throttles being added and the small UK market may prohibit them producing a special for the UK.
KudosDave

 

[Alan Quay]

Funny, I was just discussing something similar on another thread, where I suggested that an enterprising individual could probably sell model specific, plug n play throttles on eBay. It's my guess (and it is just a guess) that many manufacturers will leave the throttle connector on the controller.

 

[mike killay]

Well, if as we are told, the CPS will no longer prosecute bikes without lights, who is going to worry about throttles?

 

[Kudoscycles]

Well, if as we are told, the CPS will no longer prosecute bikes without lights, who is going to worry about throttles?

The e-bike business is full of suppliers who don't care about the legality of their product,I suspect that some will continue to sell bikes with 15 mph throttles.
I don't know anyone who has been prosecuted for using a 28 mph S class bike and police/trading standards also don't seem interested so I suppose the chance of being prosecuted with an illegal throttle is even less likely.
The problem,as always,is if the bike was involved in an accident.
KudosDave

 

[Yamdude]

I've just fitted a pedelec sensor to my bike today, if i prefer it to a throttle and feel i wont need a throttle anymore, then i'll remove the throttle and not bother with one in the future.
If however i decide i still want a throttle i will carry one fitting one to future bikes. I find it hard to attach any importance to this throttle law and will just ignore it.

 

[Nealh]

Retailers will either disconnect or remove completely if the controller still allows 15.5mph use. The buyer and diy builder will be able to get an after market throttle and just simply rewire with different connectors if they can't match M or F ones, generally with GND & 5V being black & red respectively the other colour can be any colour and will be signal. If the controller is limiting the throttle to 6km or mph then again similarly an after market controller could be fitted as I expect they will be still available from Chinese sellers Obviously China will produce limiting controllers for bike brands but also unrestrictyed versions for after market diy use.

 

[Kudoscycles]

In some respects it's a shame that the government didn't link the throttle to disabled persons rather than the requirement of type approval.
Most of my other bikes have a thumb throttle up to 4 mph and that satisfies the needs of most,many customers don't value a throttle and some even ask for it to be disconnected,I wonder how many find it imperative?
KudosDave

 

[mike killay]

I suppose that German type bikes will have a throttle giving full response up to 4 mph, but then will need proportional pedalling to achieve full power.
China will probably ignore the requirement, but as they seem to prefer throttles as so many UK owners do, they will provide throttles one way or another.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I suppose that German type bikes will have a throttle giving full response up to 4 mph, but then will need proportional pedalling to achieve full power.
China will probably ignore the requirement, but as they seem to prefer throttles as so many UK owners do, they will provide throttles one way or another.

China builds export bikes primarily for German or Dutch requirements,these countries seem to be ok with 4 mph throttles so their attitude is why the UK should be any different?
KudosDave

 

[mike killay]

Well, I can speak for Belgian cyclists and in the main they only have non throttle German bikes and are surprised to be shown my bike with a throttle.
They assumed that such a thing was not possible.

 

[shemozzle999]

At the NEC cycle show i asked a few of my competitors as to what they are intending after 15 mph throttles are banned after 1 January 2016( note we will still be able to sell e-bikes with 4 mph throttles),the response seemed very negative,mostly 'don't know'.
I only have 1 bike with a full speed throttle,my Kudos Secret,and fortunately not many left now,so probably sold out before January.
I have tried,admittedly not thoroughly,to find out how we can type approve these bikes,our government have not made it easy to seek the info as to how to type approve,never mind the type approval process itself. I suspect that most of the current e-bike suppliers will not bother,which is a shame for disabled users.
Just wondered what pedelec forum members intend to do after January and have any had a positive response from any suppliers about seeking type approval.
Some of the big European e-bike suppliers have bikes with type approval but the systems used do not easily lend themselves to throttles being added and the small UK market may prohibit them producing a special for the UK.
KudosDave

You need to set up a cheap UK Member state authorized testing company specialised in only testing L1e-A vehicles.

I would write to the authorities to find out what is the minimum requirement to set one up in the UK.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/additional/files/vehicle-type-approval/vehicle-type-approval/vca004.pdf

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/technical-services.asp

 

[JohnCade]

China builds export bikes primarily for German or Dutch requirements,these countries seem to be ok with 4 mph throttles so their attitude is why the UK should be any different?
KudosDave

Do they put any kind of throttle on bikes for the German market?

My Kalkhoff has a walk assist button, but the manual warns against anyone trying to use it as a take off assist while mounted as it isn’t up to that. In fact strictly speaking I thought all the 6 kph throttles allowed next year were to be walk assist and were not allowed to be used while mounted even if they were designed to take it. Rather like the old Hollywood pictures under the Hayes Office where you had to keep a foot on the ground.

That’s what some legalese on another thread a few days ago seemed to indicate anyway.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Depends on which country you are in. Some countries allow off the line acceleration to 6 kph. This IS legal in France as long as it only works while the pedals are turning.

 

[Cyclezee]

eZee bikes which are sold worldwide to countries where the full assist throttle is still legal, but in mainland Europe they are sold with a twist grip throttle that assists to 6 Km/h, what we call EU mode and that is how we intend to sell them in the UK.

However, it is not too difficult for someone with the know how or the ability to search the internet and find out how to override this limiter.
Therefore our dilemma, do we simply sell without throttles or do we go so far as to cut and remove the throttle wire from the cable junction so that a throttle cannot be retrofitted?

 

[JohnCade]

eZee bikes which are sold worldwide to countries where the full assist throttle is still legal, but in mainland Europe they are sold with a twist grip throttle that assists to 6 Km/h, what we call EU mode and that is how we intend to sell them in the UK.

However, it is not too difficult for someone with the know how or the ability to search the internet and find out how to override this limiter.
Therefore our dilemma, do we simply sell without throttles or do we go so far as to cut and remove the throttle wire from the cable junction so that a throttle cannot be retrofitted?

I may be wrong but the thread I referred to in my other post seemed to indicate that in the UK they would be subject to the same law which allows powered pedestrian controlled vehicles. They can travel at up to 4 mph but must be controlled by walking with them and must not be ridden on.

 

[Cyclezee]

I may be wrong but the thread I referred to in my other post seemed to indicate that in the UK they would be subject to the same law which allows powered pedestrian controlled vehicles. They can travel at up to 4 mph but must be controlled by walking with them and must not be ridden on.

Hi John, I should have said 6 Km/h walk assist, but I can't imagine anyone riding a two wheel bike at that speed with throttle only.

 

[flecc]

Depends on which country you are in. Some countries allow off the line acceleration to 6 kph. This IS legal in France as long as it only works while the pedals are turning.

That's not just in France, that applies throughout the EU including the UK. As long as the pedals are turning at those speeds the pedelec rules are satisfied.

It's using the walk-alongside throttle without pedalling while in any way onboard the bike which breaks the law. That's because it's permitted only by the Pedestrian Controlled Vehicle laws in the UK and the EU, but not by the pedelec laws.
.

 

[JohnCade]

That's not just in France, that applies throughout the EU including the UK. As long as the pedals are turning at those speeds the pedelec rules are satisfied.

It's using the walk-alongside throttle without pedalling while in any way onboard the bike which breaks the law. That's because it's permitted only by the Pedestrian Controlled Vehicle laws in the UK and the EU, but not by the pedelec laws.
.

So throttle assist for take off on hills up to 6 kph would be legal as long as with say, a rotation sensor bike with a lag, the rider pedalled as he throttled?

 

[mike killay]

My guess is that within 12 months it will all have blown over.
Shops will supply bikes without the throttle, but if of Chinese origin, the controller will have provision for a throttle.
China will sell throttles on ebay.

As I said before, if the CPS will not prosecute a bike without lights, no-one is going to bother about throttles.
Further, because of grandfather rights, it will be necessary to prove the age of the bike in court, How do you do that?
Imagine a court faced with two identical bikes, one sold just one day before 31.12.2015, the other sold on 1.1.2016, but both with throttles.

 

[flecc]

So throttle assist for take off on hills up to 6 kph would be legal as long as with say, a rotation sensor bike with a lag, the rider pedalled as he throttled?

Technically the rotation must control the power application at all times for this to be legal. If at any point power could continue without rotation, that would be illegal.

There's a clear division of law on this:

Riding is only under pedelec law which requires power to be cut the moment pedal rotation ceases. Even scooting a bike with a foot on a pedal is deemed riding.

Walking alongside under power is only under Pedestrian Controlled Vehicle law with it's own rulings of speed limit and how power is applied. One must be a pedestrian in law at all times to benefit from this law and this usage is not connected in any way to pedelec law.

This division in law permits the small difference between the UK and the EU, the walk alongside speed limit being 4 mph in the UK and 6 kph (3.6 mph) in the EU. Our law in this respect is an old 1963 one, from long before we joined the EU, and indeed before pedelecs.
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