Is anyone offering an e-bike with type approval and throttle?

[oldtom]

Imagine a court faced with two identical bikes, one sold just one day before 31.12.2015, the other sold on 1.1.2016, but both with throttles.

Now imagine yourself as the barrister representing the family of the deceased pedestrian mown down by the cyclist whose throttle jammed open on the latter of those machines!

Tom

 

[D C]

I wonder how the law stands regarding the purchase of a second hand bike with throttle bought new before 2016?
Will this improve second hand values of late 2015 bikes as opposed to early 2016?
Dave.

 

[Nealh]

I wonder how the law stands regarding the purchase of a second hand bike with throttle bought new before 2016?
Will this improve second hand values of late 2015 bikes as opposed to early 2016?
Dave.

I don't see there being any issue as with the seat belt law older cars fitted with out them have the exemption.

 

[flecc]

I wonder how the law stands regarding the purchase of a second hand bike with throttle bought new before 2016?
Will this improve second hand values of late 2015 bikes as opposed to early 2016?
Dave.

They remain permanently legal, the law only applies to the machine and not an owner.

It is possible that their value will be increased, but there would need to be provenance, such as the original purchase invoice accompanying the sale.
.

 

[JohnCade]

Technically the rotation must control the power application at all times for this to be legal. If at any point power could continue without rotation, that would be illegal.

There's a clear division of law on this:

Riding is only under pedelec law which requires power to be cut the moment pedal rotation ceases. Even scooting a bike with a foot on a pedal is deemed riding.

Walking alongside under power is only under Pedestrian Controlled Vehicle law with it's own rulings of speed limit and how power is applied. One must be a pedestrian in law at all times to benefit from this law and this usage is not connected in any way to pedelec law.

This division in law permits the small difference between the UK and the EU, the walk alongside speed limit being 4 mph in the UK and 6 kph (3.6 mph) in the EU. Our law in this respect is an old 1963 one, from long before we joined the EU, and indeed before pedelecs.
.

In the case of a bike with a pedal lag though, if as seems likely manufactures sell bikes with throttles capable of letting the rider make hill starts it would be impossible to show that they were being used illegally. As long as the pedals were used at the same time. Even in a hypothetical case where an eagle eyed copper knew the law and was interested enough to watch for it.

So in practise throttles capable of moving the rider at up to 4 mph will overcome some of the issues that the phasing out of full range throttles have highlighted.

 

[Kudoscycles]

The government have made such a mess of this,they have had since 2003 then looked like they gave it to the junior in the office to draft the regs,it is full of ambiguity and misunderstandings.
Then they say you can have a throttle but only if you have type approval but don't give suppliers the mechanism to achieve type approval.
It has left the fledgling UK e-bike industry in a undecided state with regards to throttles,which is a shame,we had the opportunity to be establishing a lead over the Europeans and helping disabled people in continuing cycling.
I will continue to sell the Kudos Secret bike with a full speed throttle but for use only when such a throttle is legal....export and private land use only...the invoice will carry such a caveat...now where have we read that sentence before,hehe?
What a mess!!!!!
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

In the case of a bike with a pedal lag though, if as seems likely manufactures sell bikes with throttles capable of letting the rider make hill starts it would be impossible to show that they were being used illegally. As long as the pedals were used at the same time. Even in a hypothetical case where an eagle eyed copper knew the law and was interested enough to watch for it.

So in practise throttles capable of moving the rider at up to 4 mph will overcome some of the issues that the phasing out of full range throttles have highlighted.

Yes definitely, as so often with e-bikes, what the law says and detection are very different matters.

The law doesn't allow for power cut lag though, it say the power must cut when pedalling ceases.
.

 

[shemozzle999]

As I have linked in my previous post if the VCA can not provide the Type Approval service then the industry could apply to set one up, you would need to talk to them.
If the bikes are already imported to EN15194 standard I would have thought the the major testing would already be documented and only L1e-A differences would require examination for a Type Approval to be awarded.

Maybe something BEBA/BAGB could look into.

 

[Kudoscycles]

As I have linked in my previous post if the VCA can not provide the Type Approval service then the industry could apply to set one up, you would need to talk to them.
If the bikes are already imported to EN15194 standard I would have thought the the major testing would already be documented and only L1e-A differences would require examination for a Type Approval to be awarded.

Maybe something BEBA/BAGB could look into.

Lovely people BEBA and they worked so hard to retain throttles but in the end the government ignored them and came up with this type approval link,I think BEBA have given up and I don't blame them.
I think the simpler route is to forget pedelecs and accept that an 800 watt x 30 mph light moped can be simply registered,also has a twist and go throttle...
KudosDave

 

[OldBob1]

Lets hope the PPI legal brigade bandits don't get wind of this, could just kill the E-bike market in UK and make them Loads of money

 

[Croxden]

Lets hope the PPI legal brigade bandits don't get wind of this, could just kill the E-bike market in UK and make them Loads of money

This will give nightmares.

 

[Kudoscycles]

My original post asked whether any members were aware of a supplier who was intending to seek type approval to retain a 15mph throttle...it looks like that is zero.....I think we must assume that these throttles are now finished on pedelecs.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Would a 800 watt x30 mph light electric moped be a good alternative,would it be attractive to pedelecs members?. The upside is you can have enough power to climb hills without pedalling,you can have twist and go throttles.
The downside is that it must be registered and taxed(zero cost),wear a helmet,insurance,not allowed on cycle tracks.
Comments welcome?
KudosDave

 

[mike killay]

My original post asked whether any members were aware of a supplier who was intending to seek type approval to retain a 15mph throttle...it looks like that is zero.....I think we must assume that these throttles are now finished on pedelecs.
KudosDave

Only in the German Empire.

 

[anotherkiwi]

With the climate here the helmet is the big show stopper for me. You cannot pedal with a motorbike helmet on your head especially when it is 36°C... You want to be able to pedal:

- to get a minimum amount of exercise, it is a bike after all
- to increase range

Registration and insurance are not a problem for me. Nor is not being able to ride on bike paths, they are limited to 10 kph anyway in the city.

Of course the s-pedelec twist and go throttle is from 0 -> 20 kph here after which you have to turn the pedals to make it work up to 45 kph. You can be fined for going over 45 kph which is the top speed assisted or unassisted for a moped here. It would have to be type approved for towing a trailer i.e. the fact that it can tow a trailer has to be mentioned on the registration certificate.

That is about all I can think of right now. For the moment a pedelec albeit slower in average speed is the best solution for me. Maybe when I get older an s-pedelec will become the better solution.

 

[trex]

Would a 800 watt x30 mph light electric moped be a good alternative,would it be attractive to pedelecs members?.
KudosDave

No, not me. I'd rather have a sub 15kg pedelec.

 

[JohnCade]

Would a 800 watt x30 mph light electric moped be a good alternative,would it be attractive to pedelecs members?. The upside is you can have enough power to climb hills without pedalling,you can have twist and go throttles.
The downside is that it must be registered and taxed(zero cost),wear a helmet,insurance,not allowed on cycle tracks.
Comments welcome?
KudosDave

I’m sure it would appeal to some. The person who wants cheap transport for instance. But the regulation requirement might be a drawback. It seems to me that a lot of people buy e bikes when they lose their driving licence. But they would need a licence to ride one of these I assume.

There is a market for cheap Chinese e scooters with rudimentary pedals, and they are usually only 200w or 250w. So there may well be a market for these if you can reach it. As in all things price is almost everything.

 

[anotherkiwi]

In France you need what is called a BSR (AM) licence if you were born after 1988 and are over 14 years old.

You can't get one if you have been convicted several times for drunk driving

En cas de suspension, d'invalidation ou d'annulation du permis de conduire
En cas d'invalidation, de suspension ou d'annulation du permis de conduire, le BSR (ou la catégorie AM du permis) permet de conduire un cyclomoteur ou un quadricycle léger sauf si une sanction judiciaire a étendu l'interdiction de conduire à ces véhicules (exemple : en cas de récidive d'alcoolémie).

 

[JohnCade]

In France you need what is called a BSR (AM) licence if you were born after 1988 and are over 14 years old.

You can't get one if you have been convicted several times for drunk driving

En cas de suspension, d'invalidation ou d'annulation du permis de conduire
En cas d'invalidation, de suspension ou d'annulation du permis de conduire, le BSR (ou la catégorie AM du permis) permet de conduire un cyclomoteur ou un quadricycle léger sauf si une sanction judiciaire a étendu l'interdiction de conduire à ces véhicules (exemple : en cas de récidive d'alcoolémie).

The law in the UK is different and you have to be seventeen to ride a powered bike in a public place. It used to be sixteen in my day. You can ride an e bike at over fourteen but I doubt you could ride one of these at that age.

 

[shemozzle999]

Lovely people BEBA and they worked so hard to retain throttles but in the end the government ignored them and came up with this type approval link,I think BEBA have given up and I don't blame them.
I think the simpler route is to forget pedelecs and accept that an 800 watt x 30 mph light moped can be simply registered,also has a twist and go throttle...
KudosDave

But the L1e-B type will not be allowed by the UK.

Again if you read the links there are VCA officers placed globally so type approval for L1e-A can be sort in China as an addition to EN15149 and the complete imported product placed immediately for sale without further modification.