Is £800 enough money to spend on an everyday ride to work bike.
- Thread starter Kudoscycles
- Start date
An interesting discussion, am I wrong in assuming that commuters in the past were limited to £1000 (or at least wished to keep to that limit) in order to comply with the cycle to work scheme, so there could have been occasions where people would like the best components but knew they were not going to get them and comply with this limit.
I do 'leisure - shop - family' cycling so cant comment on commuting.
I do 'leisure - shop - family' cycling so cant comment on commuting.
Yes that's correct I have a Dahon. I know we've touched on the distinction between outside of China companies running manufacturing factories in China, and Chinese companies.
Where's next? I see on the news factories and migrant workers are off to other developing countries now.
Age and experience comes into it. Derby Cycles/Kalkhoff only took over the Daum design quite recently as their first ever own-brand e-bike motor. They have been upgrading it on the back of no previous experience and have unsurprisingly hit problems.
Years ago Suzhou Bafang also had many problems, in particular with the internal nylon gears chewing up. I had one personally that started to fail at under 100 miles and fell to bits at under 200. I drove back to the importer in person with the bike and what did I see but many opened up motor wheels with chewed up gears and hub racks. Of three new stock motor wheels tried as my replacement, the first and second didn't work at all!
They learnt, with redesigned gear wheels the hub toothed racks were made thicker so that they didn't distort under load and fail in consequence.
So it's no surprise that the Kalkhoff Impulse II problem has been with the nylon gear wheel. No doubt they'll learn too with the experience gained and the new Evo version may be that outcome.
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I had the chance to see 2 different made in China supermarket bikes this week, here i the unofficial French market summary:
- Carrefour, Spain has a 685 € bike with mudguards and a rack with a huge behind the seat post SLA battery
- Leclerc, France has a 795 € hybrid I guess you call them with an 8.8 A Li-Ion battery
- 795 € is entry level price for the sporting goods stores made in China bikes with 995 € being the price for their "better" models. LBS have brands only with starting price at 1395 € or so for entry level bikes. An "assembled in France" e-bike http://www.nakamura.fr/ELECTRIQUE/e-fit-100/p/50008405M9 from Intersport.
Kits in France are eye-wateringly expensive, it is much better to buy now from the UK. At the time my kit from Spain was competitive. So let's stick with Spain for the example:
Sine wave controller 17 A, 13 A 09 battery, 250 W Mxus cassette rear hub motor in 28" rim = 765 € delivered
350 € for a new trekking bike with suspension fork
2 new tyres to replace the horrible Chinese tyres these bikes come with by default (495 € Decathlon bike comes with Continentals). A Magura hydraulic rim brake for the front 60 € (don't ask why).
Total + than 1200 € for a decent commuter. Over time the lights would need to be replaced , the "high end" Decathlon bike has a horrible dynamo in the front wheel that could be swapped out for a standard hub and lights wired to the battery for example.
If I was riding 20 km to work every day I couldn't see myself spending less than 1500 € which when you compare with the cost of running a car over the same distance here means you get your money back within the first six months.
- Carrefour, Spain has a 685 € bike with mudguards and a rack with a huge behind the seat post SLA battery
- Leclerc, France has a 795 € hybrid I guess you call them with an 8.8 A Li-Ion battery
- 795 € is entry level price for the sporting goods stores made in China bikes with 995 € being the price for their "better" models. LBS have brands only with starting price at 1395 € or so for entry level bikes. An "assembled in France" e-bike http://www.nakamura.fr/ELECTRIQUE/e-fit-100/p/50008405M9 from Intersport.
Kits in France are eye-wateringly expensive, it is much better to buy now from the UK. At the time my kit from Spain was competitive. So let's stick with Spain for the example:
Sine wave controller 17 A, 13 A 09 battery, 250 W Mxus cassette rear hub motor in 28" rim = 765 € delivered
350 € for a new trekking bike with suspension fork
2 new tyres to replace the horrible Chinese tyres these bikes come with by default (495 € Decathlon bike comes with Continentals). A Magura hydraulic rim brake for the front 60 € (don't ask why).
Total + than 1200 € for a decent commuter. Over time the lights would need to be replaced , the "high end" Decathlon bike has a horrible dynamo in the front wheel that could be swapped out for a standard hub and lights wired to the battery for example.
If I was riding 20 km to work every day I couldn't see myself spending less than 1500 € which when you compare with the cost of running a car over the same distance here means you get your money back within the first six months.
my previous bike is a Specialized mtb fitted with Tektro Auriga HDB, Rockshox, Schwalbe tyres and tubes, Bafang BBS01. Total spending in excess of £1,000. My current bike is Giant Defy fitted with the Karoo kit, total spending £800. The price of batteries have come down a bit so it's doable within this budget but expect to do everything yourself. Give yourself a cost target per mile, multiply by the number of miles you ride a year, then look out for a solution that will be good for at least 2 years. The re-sale value of a commuter bike is very little, so you will have to amortize your investment within 2-3 years. The sort of challenges that a manufacturer has to face if they want to make and sell a commuter bike for £800 is not only on budget and margin but also on the expectations of their customers. When someone spends £2k on a bike, I bet the bike will be properly stored and maintained whereas a £800 bike may be lashed to a lamp post to be rained on. A couple of years ago, one member was making a point about the black anodized cap on his MTB stem bolt bronzed only after a few months. That's the typical supply problem with most Chinese bikes, most factories just cannot source common parts that are well made in China, the big brands manage importation of these from Taiwan themselves. I tell you a story about Chinese factories. I know the woosh bikes very well, all the bolts, nuts and spokes are stainless steel so you'd say where is the problem? on one batch, the factory fitted nipples made out of brass plated steel so that they look like nipples made out of brass. You can guess the result.
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Anyone from the boating world will tell you there is stainless steel then there is Chinese stainless steel...
I added two tyres and tubes, a rack, mirror, Axa frame lock, ergotec pedals, SKS mudguards, b+m battery lights, Magura hydraulic rim brake front, ergonomic grips and a Velo seat to my 0 € bike. All the derailleurs and cogs come from another 0 € bike. With the Ciclotek kit the grand total is 1048 €. I could have gone cheaper on the components but comfort and reliability have a price. After 2400 km I have replaced rear brake pads and broken the mirror (not the glass the stem, don't ask...) for a total cost of 13 €. I need a new chain, bulk pack KMC chains are not the highest quality.
I have calculated amortization over 3 years and 15,000 km which works out to about 0.08 € a kilometre (I have factored in brakes tyres and chains).
I added two tyres and tubes, a rack, mirror, Axa frame lock, ergotec pedals, SKS mudguards, b+m battery lights, Magura hydraulic rim brake front, ergonomic grips and a Velo seat to my 0 € bike. All the derailleurs and cogs come from another 0 € bike. With the Ciclotek kit the grand total is 1048 €. I could have gone cheaper on the components but comfort and reliability have a price. After 2400 km I have replaced rear brake pads and broken the mirror (not the glass the stem, don't ask...) for a total cost of 13 €. I need a new chain, bulk pack KMC chains are not the highest quality.
I have calculated amortization over 3 years and 15,000 km which works out to about 0.08 € a kilometre (I have factored in brakes tyres and chains).
To sum up....the guys who complain about the lack of quality components on chinese sourced bikes (dont forget the biggest market for chinese e-bikes is Holland)have only themselves to blame. I select the best quality parts within the budget allocated to a particular model,I am sure Woosh do the same.
If the market wants to spend a little more money then the quality of parts can be considerably higher but englishman in the main want as cheap as possible,what the Chinese call supermarket quality.
I tend to resist using the very lowest quality of parts available because it invites future problems.
There is a programme about the history of China on the TV at the moment,every rider in the background is on a Chinese e-bike with direct drive motors,lead acid batteries,you can buy them in Tesco China for $200.00 USD but here the sale of goods act and the warranty implications effectively eliminates anyone selling one...in China if it breaks down there is a repair shop on every street that will fix it from a stack of cannabilised old bikes,another world!!!
KudosDave
If the market wants to spend a little more money then the quality of parts can be considerably higher but englishman in the main want as cheap as possible,what the Chinese call supermarket quality.
I tend to resist using the very lowest quality of parts available because it invites future problems.
There is a programme about the history of China on the TV at the moment,every rider in the background is on a Chinese e-bike with direct drive motors,lead acid batteries,you can buy them in Tesco China for $200.00 USD but here the sale of goods act and the warranty implications effectively eliminates anyone selling one...in China if it breaks down there is a repair shop on every street that will fix it from a stack of cannabilised old bikes,another world!!!
KudosDave
An interesting debate no doubt!
The company I work for is Byocycles...all of our bikes come with a 2 year guarantee, every part is in stock 99.9% of the time. We use Samsung batteries currently and are making the move to Panasonic with this years models, our current range has a Shimano Tourney drivetrain, which isn't the best but being cheaper and also 6/7 speed actually isn't that bad of a thing! We all know that a 10/11 speed chain isn't as hard wearing as a 6 speed one. (evident with bikes from the 80s still running perfectly on original chains and freewheels)
Our + models both have an Avid front disc and a Shimano rear brake, SRAM X3 gears, Mxus rear hub motor (250w) King meter SW-LCD and a 36v 10ah samsung battery! Yeah, they're slightly over £1k at £1199.
Even the cheapest of our folding models at £799 the Chameleon FD still has tourney, Samsung celled battery, tektro V brakes etc...just because it's imported from the east doesn't mean it's poor quality! It's about being accountable if something does go wrong! Nobody wants to buy from a fly by night bike company!!
Look out for our new models, especially our new Mid drive models dropping in March/April
The company I work for is Byocycles...all of our bikes come with a 2 year guarantee, every part is in stock 99.9% of the time. We use Samsung batteries currently and are making the move to Panasonic with this years models, our current range has a Shimano Tourney drivetrain, which isn't the best but being cheaper and also 6/7 speed actually isn't that bad of a thing! We all know that a 10/11 speed chain isn't as hard wearing as a 6 speed one. (evident with bikes from the 80s still running perfectly on original chains and freewheels)
Our + models both have an Avid front disc and a Shimano rear brake, SRAM X3 gears, Mxus rear hub motor (250w) King meter SW-LCD and a 36v 10ah samsung battery! Yeah, they're slightly over £1k at £1199.
Even the cheapest of our folding models at £799 the Chameleon FD still has tourney, Samsung celled battery, tektro V brakes etc...just because it's imported from the east doesn't mean it's poor quality! It's about being accountable if something does go wrong! Nobody wants to buy from a fly by night bike company!!
Look out for our new models, especially our new Mid drive models dropping in March/April
Anotherkiwi....there is low quality and high quality stainless in every country,low quality stainless(sometimes called ferritic stainless) has a very low chromium content,it was extensively used to make those cheap kitchen sinks that corroded in one month.
I had a boat built in Zhuhai,China....the quality of the stainless on that boat is fantastic,8 years old and still cleans like new. The builders are part of the mega wealthy chinese/taiwanese group known as Jet Tern,they manufacture 30% of the worlds cutlery sets....11000 employees making knives and forks!
Jet Tern can cast stainless like no other stainless manufacturer in the world....there is good or bad stainless in ever country,but it is unfair to brand all chinese stainless as poor quality.
KudosDave
Zack....are you in a position to advise what motor you are using in the mid drive models? I looked at using the Bafang Max Drive system in a new model but the resultant retail price would have been over £1500.00,it sort of negated the price advantage of chinese supply and put it too close to German assembled product,especially with the strength of the £ v Euro.An interesting debate no doubt!
The company I work for is Byocycles...all of our bikes come with a 2 year guarantee, every part is in stock 99.9% of the time. We use Samsung batteries currently and are making the move to Panasonic with this years models, our current range has a Shimano Tourney drivetrain, which isn't the best but being cheaper and also 6/7 speed actually isn't that bad of a thing! We all know that a 10/11 speed chain isn't as hard wearing as a 6 speed one. (evident with bikes from the 80s still running perfectly on original chains and freewheels)
Our + models both have an Avid front disc and a Shimano rear brake, SRAM X3 gears, Mxus rear hub motor (250w) King meter SW-LCD and a 36v 10ah samsung battery! Yeah, they're slightly over £1k at £1199.
Even the cheapest of our folding models at £799 the Chameleon FD still has tourney, Samsung celled battery, tektro V brakes etc...just because it's imported from the east doesn't mean it's poor quality! It's about being accountable if something does go wrong! Nobody wants to buy from a fly by night bike company!!
Look out for our new models, especially our new Mid drive models dropping in March/April
Freego had some samples of e-bikes using that motor at the NEC,not sure whether they continued to bulk manufacture.
Good luck,it will be interesting if the UK will accept a chinese supplied bike at that price point.
Kudos Dave
I got about 3,000 miles out of my last bike, 30p a mile, still value for money.
I'm afraid I can't divulge the information until I've made a decision on which we're going with! But soon, maybe I'll put a post up here introducing the models when they land
I hear you but am an old enough boater to remember when the production of stainless steel boating equipment moved from Europe to China. Who wasn't tempted by the low cost bits and bobs that arrived on the market? Catamarans are very demanding and you chew through quite a bit of gear in a season.
Lets just say their production at that time was of unequal quality depending on which steel mill it came from. And some of them are still making cr@p steel.
The problem when you are looking at commuting, I think, is risk. When you start you aren't sure if you can ride that far every day, if the ebike will have enough range, provide enough assistance etc, etc. That means you can't rely on a savings over using your a car, especially as you would have to get rid of the car to make a lot of those savings (I believe we (government / society) can promote cycling by making car ownership cheaper, but that's another story). So you are reluctant to commit even a moderate sum to it.
Then the most realistic alternative is not a car but a used moped. Purchase cost circa £500, circa 100mpg, insurance, MOTs etc which eventually add up, but that comparison puts amortisation even further away.
As a used market for ebikes appears, a good quality used machine would become the best option, but for now there are very few about.
So where's the entry level? For me it was to build, since I had an even lower budget (£500, which is what I estimated I could get by selling my motorbike), using a reliable bike I already had as a base. I used the cheapest kit I could get hold of. It's done 1200miles so far in the mud and rain. I did fit Schwalbe Marathon tyres fairly quickly. They only add about £50 and well worth it for commuting. Good lights are essential too, but you don't always get either of those on an expensive machine.
When (if) I come to replace it, I would be prepared to spend more, since I know commuting by ebike works for me. I'll probably just keep replacing components with higher quality ones as they fail, that spreads the cost.
Then the most realistic alternative is not a car but a used moped. Purchase cost circa £500, circa 100mpg, insurance, MOTs etc which eventually add up, but that comparison puts amortisation even further away.
As a used market for ebikes appears, a good quality used machine would become the best option, but for now there are very few about.
So where's the entry level? For me it was to build, since I had an even lower budget (£500, which is what I estimated I could get by selling my motorbike), using a reliable bike I already had as a base. I used the cheapest kit I could get hold of. It's done 1200miles so far in the mud and rain. I did fit Schwalbe Marathon tyres fairly quickly. They only add about £50 and well worth it for commuting. Good lights are essential too, but you don't always get either of those on an expensive machine.
When (if) I come to replace it, I would be prepared to spend more, since I know commuting by ebike works for me. I'll probably just keep replacing components with higher quality ones as they fail, that spreads the cost.
I agree,I have been a sailor for 35 years,I remember the awful product that came out of Taiwan,especially those sailing hulks,but times have changed.
KudosDave
I appreciated that,which is why I carefully worded my posting. I wish you luck with your new model.I'm afraid I can't divulge the information until I've made a decision on which we're going with! But soon, maybe I'll put a post up here introducing the models when they land
KudosDave
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