I have a brand new bike...

[Taff]

Hi Taff,

Your bike looks sound mate,(wish I'd had one) even thoughh I am puzzled into why throttle control was never fitted to this bike. I'm quite sure that people would also like that as an added feature.

Mountainsport.

Torque sensor works brilliantly but I guess a throttle would be good on a long drag.

 

[Taff]

That's one heck of a route to have your bike develop a fault on ! Full credit for finishing it and some lovely scenery. 2,347 calories burned ... LOL. That's more than an average man's rations for a day - I'd waste away in no time ! That's a geared motor so drag is likely not a problem - but nothing would persuade me to want to ride those hills unassisted !

I hope you're having a blooming big dinner tonight

Aye it's a lovely route. The Tour of Britain used to go up the Pass and the 'closed road' event Etape Cymru goes over it as well.
Etape Cymru 2013 | Etape Cymru is UK's Toughest Closed Road Sportive

I could do the Horseshoe Pass (slowly) a few years back and wanted to get back up on the moors which is why I went Pedelec.

I've had 3 pints of orange squash and a curry. Maybe a few G and Ts later. No make that a defo.

 

[GaRRy]

Torque sensor works brilliantly but I guess a throttle would be good on a long drag.

Yep as Taff says the torque sensor works so well you just dont need a throttle. Up a really steep hill as with any bike you would still need to put in some work and on the flat in economy mode can cruise along with very little effort any way and if your really feeling lazy can always put it all the way up to boost.

 

[mountainsport]

Torque sensor works brilliantly but I guess a throttle would be good on a long drag.

Or even cruise control.

Mountainsport.

 

[Taff]

Update 5
Decided to get up early and get out before the rain.

With a fully charged* (see below) battery I set off.
This is another tough route that I can no longer do 'unassisted' anymore so really looking forward to this. Lovely ride along and up to the moors near to World's End. Used Eco mode a lot on this ride and on a steeper section I tried a higher power setting but NOTHING - no increase at all - seems like another problem.

Also I seemed to experience a real 'drag' - on one or two occasions - when the motor was off. I had to drop right down the gears and even then I nearly came to a halt. Whether the motor is 'sticking' I don't know.

Very few people out and about early on a Sunday morning so it was a pleasure.
Battery power seemed (to me) to run down fairly quickly to 2 bars and even 1 bar but it did get me home; albeit showing zero power.

Route was 26.38 miles with 2198 ft of ascent at average speed of 13.87 mph.

Ride Link: Cyclemeter - Cycle - May 12, 2013, 7:33 AM

So what are my current thoughts?

Very enjoyable to ride the above issues notwithstanding. I think if I had economised on the Eco I would have preserved more power - Eco Eco I know.

* I noticed on return (with ref. to the manual) that the battery is fully charged when the light goes green but there is another line that says switch off when the light goes off. I hadn't done that so maybe there is a final trickle charge and therefore my battery was not fully charged when I set off.

I'm concerned about the Power and Drag issues but hopefully I can get these sorted when I take the bike in for its first service in a few weeks. On Eco alone I'm delighted with the bike.

RANGE: Clearly looking at distance alone is a complete load of cobblers. I think it's probably more relevant to look at Ascent and Average Speed to get an idea of what a full battery can do.

Look forward to any comments.

 

[103Alex1]

Used Eco mode a lot on this ride and on a steeper section I tried a higher power setting but NOTHING - no increase at all - seems like another problem.

http://i1.wp.com/www.bh-emotion.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/neo-rds-display.jpg?resize=542,206

That's very odd. Anyone else had this with these bikes ?

There's a big difference between 1:0.7 and 1:3 times measured torque and there ought to have been a huge perceived difference. Does the display have a function which can show you graphically the amount of power you're drawing ?

Does sound like you've got a dodgy controller connection or a faulty LCD/controller. It could mean your Eco is actually stuck in Standard or Sport !

RANGE: Clearly looking at distance alone is a complete load of cobblers. I think it's probably more relevant to look at Ascent and Average Speed to get an idea of what a full battery can do.

Yes to ascent but less clear cut on average speed in my experience. On some sections a little more speed will result in a huge additional power draw and on others have very little effect.

I've found that more speed on climbs makes the biggest difference to battery consumption. Guess with a fixed assist:rider effort ratio the harder you work the more you get back from the motor in return so more effort actually = more battery consumption at a given battery assist ratio. Perhaps the motor was already giving all the torque it had to give in Eco so in a higher assist setting the theoretical extra matching did not correlate to more performance in terms of speed ? Could you ease back and climb just as easily though ? It does look a bit puzzling.

Looking at your chart and comparing gradient against speed though, your consistent ascent speed range does appear high for an E-Bike. Suggests high rider input and also high motor output. However, your speed tops 15mph only really on the downhills. So you were drawing power pretty much the rest of the time and not riding in the battery-sparing 'beyond assist zone' on more moderate slight uphill runs (albeit they may be few in number).

Taking ascent and speed into account that's a healthy mileage off a 9Ah battery. Were you putting in considerable effort yourself on top of the motor assist on the climbs ?

 

[Taff]

There's a big difference between 1:0.7 and 1:3 times measured torque and there ought to have been a huge perceived difference. Does the display have a function which can show you graphically the amount of power you're drawing ?

No - Battery level and Power assist.

Does sound like you've got a dodgy controller connection or a faulty LCD/controller. It could mean your Eco is actually stuck in Standard or Sport !

I can click it off. I can click it once for Eco; extra clicks produce no change. I hope/think the assist was Eco and not anything higher.

Perhaps the motor was already giving all the torque it had to give in Eco so in a higher assist setting the theoretical extra matching did not correlate to more performance in terms of speed ? Could you ease back and climb just as easily though ? It does look a bit puzzling.

I think it would have given me more (and been noticeable) on the steeper sections Alex.

Looking at your chart and comparing gradient against speed though, your consistent ascent speed range does appear high for an E-Bike. Suggests high rider input and also high motor output. However, your speed tops 15mph only really on the downhills. So you were drawing power pretty much the rest of the time and not riding in the battery-sparing 'beyond assist zone' on more moderate slight uphill runs (albeit they may be few in number).
Taking ascent and speed into account that's a healthy mileage off a 9Ah battery. Were you putting in considerable effort yourself on top of the motor assist on the climbs ?

Yes and that's what I meant about ascent/speed to find range. I did work hard but I wouldn't have said considerable effort. I think there were 1 or 2 ahem, cough, 'moderate slight uphill runs'. Never really needed to stop and only had a drink of water once. Stopped only for photos really.

I'll do this again, and try to be more Eco on the Eco.
I imagine that on a 'Cheshire plains' run I will get a stack of mileage.

 

[103Alex1]

Hate to say it (and I may be wrong) ... but looking at your climb profile I'd be astonished if you were only getting 1:0.7 assist. If you are and also managing those speeds then you must be a strong / fit rider working reasonably hard throughout the ride.

On the steep climbing it's an odd thing - I'm currently thinking that motor capability max-out can occur far lower than potential theoretical assist. You only have a 350W (restricted) motor and therefore I'd expect its capabilities to max out in that terrain at pretty low speeds (9-12mph max on a prolonged very steep climb). I'm guessing therefore you may not notice that much more power than you already teased out of the motor in a higher assist mode - it might just stop you stalling out so easily if you decreased your efforts.

I might be wrong on that - someone will no doubt tell me if I am. But there's only so much power a motor has to offer and it being theoretically capable of 2:1 or 3:1 assistance doesn't mean in practice that it can. I'm very interested in finding out if this is correct - because it may answer some of the questions I was going to try and have a challenging long test ride of the Neo to find out for myself

Rather than do a long ride to test range - if you can manage try the different power levels in as flat a terrain as you can find. You should notice a big difference in acceleration. Then try to climb a single steep slope and play with the gears you use in the different assist modes to see if that makes any difference. I don't understand PAS hub-drive bikes much as only have a throttle on mine. Although I understand the motor doesn't drive through the gears, the gearing chosen still matters a lot as it makes a difference to what I'm usefully adding to the motor - both in terms of top speed and effective climbing.

 

[Taff]

Hate to say it (and I may be wrong) ... but looking at your climb profile I'd be astonished if you were only getting 1:0.7 assist. If you are and also managing those speeds then you must be a strong / fit rider working reasonably hard throughout the ride.

I'm small and fat but I do hike up the mountains and have been riding my MTB for years. I do have strong legs but I can't say I can compare them.

On the steep climbing it's an odd thing - I'm currently thinking that motor capability max-out can occur far lower than potential theoretical assist. You only have a 350W (restricted) motor and therefore I'd expect its capabilities to max out in that terrain at pretty low speeds (9-12mph max on a prolonged very steep climb). I'm guessing therefore you may not notice that much more power than you already teased out of the motor in a higher assist mode - it might just stop you stalling out so easily if you decreased your efforts.

Yes - I wondered that which is why I tried the higher power settings at several different times.

At Manifold in April I tested 2 bikes. I've included the links so you can compare my speeds on two different bikes.
1 KTM eRace 650 (Torque Sensor) Panasonic Rear Hub Drive
2 KUDOS Arriba (Torque Sensor) 8Fun Rear Hub Drive

Assumptions/Facts
I wanted to test the bikes under the conditions under which I might use them i.e. knackered.
Thus I did a 7 mile hike first including 700m of ascent.
On the bike I carried 2 full water bottles with me.
I weigh about 14.5 stone.
On each ride I approached the hill with no assist on.
The route was 2.61 miles from the Tea Rooms up to Wetton and back with a 20 second ish stop at the top. The hill is about 10-11% no more through the majority of the climb; the average through the climb is about 7.5%.

Comments:
1 KTM eRace 650 (Torque Sensor) Panasonic Rear Hub Drive
Terrific bike, torque sensor was magnificent and gave a very smooth ride. Beautiful gear changes and lovely smooth rolling along without assist. With assist coped with the hill easily and an enjoyable climb. Very enjoyable descent max speed 39.44mph w/out pushing brakes were excellent.
Ride Link: Cyclemeter - Cycle - Apr 13, 2013, 11:59 AM

Comments:
2 KUDOS Arriba (Torque Sensor) 8Fun Rear Hub Drive
Good bike, torque sensor was solid but a bit lively when setting off. Gave a smooth ride but it seemed to me that the motor kept cutting out for a micro-second every now and then. Good gear changes and smooth rolling along without assist. With assist coped with the hill easily and an enjoyable climb apart from the glitches mentioned earlier. Very enjoyable descent max speed 33.58mph w/out pushing brakes were good but I was wary of them - hence a slower descent.
Ride Link: Cyclemeter - Cycle - Apr 13, 2013, 12:20 PM
(Note the drop in speed at around 1.35 miles.

I might be wrong on that - someone will no doubt tell me if I am. But there's only so much power a motor has to offer and it being theoretically capable of 2:1 or 3:1 assistance doesn't mean in practice that it can. I'm very interested in finding out if this is correct - because it may answer some of the questions I was going to try and have a challenging long test ride of the Neo to find out for myself

I tried Garry's Neos at Wetton and it sped up the hill - I didn't feel the same today. It would be good if Garry reads this conversation and chips in as he's very experienced with these bikes.

Rather than do a long ride to test range - if you can manage try the different power levels in as flat a terrain as you can find. You should notice a big difference in acceleration. Then try to climb a single steep slope and play with the gears you use in the different assist modes to see if that makes any difference. I don't understand PAS hub-drive bikes much as only have a throttle on mine. Although I understand the motor doesn't drive through the gears, the gearing chosen still matters a lot as it makes a difference to what I'm usefully adding to the motor - both in terms of top speed and effective climbing.

I'll perhaps try that this week. As for the gearing, it's something I do naturally, I have more or less the same gears on my MTB. It is natural (on the Neo) to go UP a gear to make the motor do more as it senses the harder effort I'm putting in. It's all fascinating. I'll be interested to see what you make of the Wetton ride speeds compared to the Neo rides.

 

[dmcgoldrick]

battery use of over 12 watt-hour per mile looks in the ball park for the route you have shown with a good amount of rider input......

very similar to my storck on a very similar journey profile of steep ascent and distance.....although you are carrying a bit extra weight than me, but maybe i am giving you a few years ??
regards

 

[Taff]

.....although you are carrying a bit extra weight than me, but maybe i am giving you a few years ??
regards

Oh decades I reckon lol.
I'm 58 1/2.

 

[Taff]

here's the Woosh prediction from Hatti's site. Seems about right.

 

[Taff]

Just tried to add this to my Tesco Contents insurance - no can do. Ordinary bike yes; Pedelec no.

 

[martin@onbike]

These are apparently quite good...not sure how much they cost mind you.....

Bicycle Insurance - Cycle Insurance & Public Liability Quotes | Cycleguard

 

[jhruk]

Just tried to add this to my Tesco Contents insurance - no can do. Ordinary bike yes; Pedelec no.

Try Nationwide when you next renew. Their definition of a pedal cycle specifically includes electrically assisted models.


‘Pedal cycle - Any pedal cycle including electrically powered models, belonging to you, and its accessories.’

 

[Taff]

Might try a ride tomorrow depending on the weather.

 

[Taff]

UPDATE 6
Woke up earlyish and the weather seemed fine. I decided to go east which means dropping down to the River Dee and eventually having to climb back from it.
I decided to take it easy and roam about a bit - which I did.
I used the suspension forks as it seems better.
I started with a FULLY charged battery and just used ECO on the steeper bits. Slowly pedalled up the lesser slopes myself. Oh well done me.
I was amazed to find that the first of 5 battery indicator lights going out was at a whopping 32 miles!
(It might actually have been 38)
The ride ended up being 43 miles with 1230 ft of ascent (which also surprised me) but looking at the profile you can see lots of up and downs.
I was tiring towards the end but determined not to use extra power along the flat; however I had to at times due to headwind. The final climb was great to do with battery assistance after having struggled with this for years. It was here that I used MORE than ECO and could tell the difference.

Ride Link: Cyclemeter - Cycle - May 14, 2013, 9:06 AM

So what are my current thoughts?
I still have the highest regard for the riding quality and battery assistance on this bike. It is a pleasure to ride both unassisted and assisted. However - my AB and C are all sore so I'm going to try a fat gel seat for next time.
I have bought a bike bag that sits on the top of the frame and that's great to hold my camera and keys etc. Using a bike rucksack is brilliant and I don't even notice it.

I think Alex may be correct that the level of assistance is 'sticking' at a higher level than Eco.
I have a hot bath planned in a bit and a few beers for tonight - because I'm worth it.

All comments welcome.

 

[mountainsport]

It did seem very keenly tuned ... and was really nice to get that performance off a PAS system. I did wonder whether that 350W motor on it was actually restricted to be completely honest. It's a bike I'd happily take for a long test ride.

Alex, in your own opinion, does it feel more powerful than a 350w system? If that is the case what does it feel like to you?

Mountainsport

 

[Taff]

UPDATE 7 - 56.5 miles - Longest Ride ever.

Planned today as the weather seemed fine. It was pretty dull all day apart from the last hour. BUT it was dry.

I decided to go Chester way and pick up the canal towpath and go (part) through Chester on that and pick up the NCR5; which I did. When I had crossed the River Dee on the way back I decided to follow NCR5 for a few miles. By this time I knew today was going to be a big one!
I used the suspension forks again.
I started with a FULLY charged battery and just used ECO on the steeper bits. Slowly pedalled up the lesser slopes myself.
The first of 5 battery indicator lights went out at 32 miles. This was just were I left the coast and started to climb. The second light went out 3 miles of climbing later. What a dummy I am - I had intended to get to the dual-carriageway and walk across and carry on up the other side. I completely forgot this was the A55 Expressway and was as busy as any simile you want. So I pelted down the A55 and got off ASAP.
I carried on for home leaving the Eco setting on as by now my legs were tired. Passed a serious (just happened) car crash and later stopped to watch a Flintshire Cup Village cricket match - which was nice. The 3rd light went out at 48 miles. Shortly after this, being near to home with 2 lights left on I thought I'd take a turn off and try to use up more of the battery; at 48.5 I turned off and up for Brymbo. I got to somewhere around 50miles and down to 1 battery light - ******. I carried on up and up about 500 ft up and bang down to zero; more or less the same time as my iPhone battery gave up.
I figured that it might be best to turn around and make for home. I did and I'm glad to say I still had power left when I got home.

The ride ended up being 56.5 miles with a massive 2967 ft of ascent.

The ride link will show the first 51 miles, I worked out the balance on my mapping software.

Ride Link: Cyclemeter - Cycle - May 19, 2013, 9:22 AM

So what are my current thoughts?

I think this is a fantastic bike.

All comments welcome.

 

[jackhandy]

All comments welcome.

I think Taff's a happy chappy - And so would I be, if I could get fifty-odd miles!