Hydraulic disks on ebikes

[halfer]

Hi all

I am looking for a new e-bike to replace my (sadly stolen) Juicy Sport. I am pondering whether to inject a bit more cash to see if a higher price-point offers better value over the long term (the Juicy Sport currently goes for £1084 with hydraulic disks, and I am considering up to £1500).

Surveying the field, one of the things that strikes me is that very few of the bikes offer hydraulic disk brakes. This was the best feature of the Juicy, and to get best integration with the controller and levers it seems a good idea to get these at the start.

At this price, Wisper and Oxygen come to mind, but these all seem to have mechanical disks, as do more expensive bikes such as the BH Emotion. Are branded (say, Tektro) mechanical disks still good for heavy-duty commuting? I found the stopping power of hydraulic disks to be excellent, and the self-adjusting system meant I didn't need to fiddle or swap pads in six months (would have been longer if the bike hadn't been stolen). True, the original mech disks were cheap n' cheerful!

I did find the (not yet released) Kudos Arriba, which has Tektro hydraulic disks. Are there any others that won't break the bank?

 

[Kudoscycles]

Hi all

I am looking for a new e-bike to replace my (sadly stolen) Juicy Sport. I am pondering whether to inject a bit more cash to see if a higher price-point offers better value over the long term (the Juicy Sport currently goes for £1084 with hydraulic disks, and I am considering up to £1500).

Surveying the field, one of the things that strikes me is that very few of the bikes offer hydraulic disk brakes. I'd be inclined to get these at the start, since this was the best feature of the Juicy, and to get best integration with the controller and levers it seems a good idea to get these at the start.

At this price, Wisper and Oxygen come to mind, but these all seem to have mechanical disks, as do more expensive bikes such as the BH Emotion. Are branded (say, Tektro) mechanical disks still good for heavy-duty commuting? I found the stopping power of hydraulic disks to be excellent, and the self-adjusting system meant I didn't need to fiddle or swap pads in six months (would have been longer if the bike hadn't been stolen). True, the original mech disks were cheap n' cheerful!

I did find the (not yet released) Kudos Arriba, which has Tektro hydraulic disks. Are there any others that won't break the bank?

Our current Kudos King bike has Tektro hyraulic disc brakes,priced at £995.00
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[hech]

aye thats dealers for you. Rather put the thirty quid in their pocket than give you a decent emergency stop contingency plan as you ride off into the sunset. hydrolic brakes are for sissies anyway.

 

[halfer]

Dave, thanks.

I'll add it to my list, hadn't seen that one. I've not used a bike with the battery on the rear rack, but I'd expect the vertical mount behind the seat-post would provide a better centre of gravity? That's another item in the Arriba's favour, though not sure I want to wait until Feb 2013

I'd happily go for non-hydraulic brakes if I thought they would be effective, and genuinely maintenance free. Do any of these (disk or otherwise) self-adjust, or is that just hydraulic? Must be branded - not risking cheapie ones again.

 

[JuicyBike]

Hi Jon
Sorry to hear about your stolen bike, but reassuring that the Cooperative have shown other banks how to behave. We bank with them too. Should anyone approach us for a battery for it I'll let you know.

We are now using Tektro cable callipers as standard on our latest bikes (and many other improvements since you bought your Sport), but still prefer the Hygia (Taiwanese) brand for the hydraulic upgrade. The cut-off switch Hygia use seems more robust. Fitting these components ourselves, in the UK, gives us the luxury of a wider choice than having them fitted in China and keeps our stock flexible.

Hydraulic brakes are needed for some over cable brakes. Not everyone wants to regularly adjust cable brakes and some require the extra force transfer efficiency of hydraulics.

Tektro seem the brand most recognised by local bike shops, alongside Avid and Shimano, and this is important where a rider has few electric bike specialists within reach. Though that continues to become less of an issue countrywide as bike shops increasingly recognise the importance of electric bikes in their market.

I would focus your cost-comparisons on future maintenance and replacement issues: look for bikes that are easy to support locally and have widely available alternative suppliers for their components, particularly batteries. We've changed Juicy components to become standardised (informed over 4 years of customer feedback) and widely recognised both in local bike shops and the specialist e-bike dealers and our own network of dealers is gradually but consistently widening.

Wisper, Oxygen, E-Motion and all the BEBA brands are excellent choices to consider alongside the latest brands making an impact such as Kudos as you've noted. But I'd still like to keep you as a customer and hope you take a close look at the latest Juicy bikes.

I hope you get back on the road soon.

 

[the_killjoy]

Does anyone do a hydraulic front brake for the Wisper 905 with a built in switch; as I cannot be fussed to make up the switch separately.

 

[hech]

I don't understand why all ebikes with the possible exception of the cheapest budget options are not equipped with effective hydraulic brakes. Seems like the most basic safety precaution.

 

[Pedant]

Perhaps it's because, unless you 're planning to ride through deep mud or water, V brakes are more effective and a much more sensible engineering solution (no torque through the spokes). Unfortunately they're not very fashionable. Still you don't see many disc brakes in the Tour de France where 60 mph descents are undertaken.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Perhaps it's because, unless you 're planning to ride through deep mud or water, V brakes are more effective and a much more sensible engineering solution (no torque through the spokes). Unfortunately they're not very fashionable. Still you don't see many disc brakes in the Tour de France where 60 mph descents are undertaken.

Well we've had the discussion before, so let's go again: I have bikes with expensive hydraulic brakes, cheap hydraulic brakes, cheap cable brakes and rim brakes. In my mind for normal riding, that's exactly the order of their effectiveness. IMHO, there's absolutely no comparison between rim brakes and decent hydraulic ones. Sure they all can stop you quickly, but the control is infinitely better with decent hydraulic brakes than any rim brakes that I've ever tried, and that's why they fit them to most decent bikes. One time I went straight over the handlebars with rim brakes and I didn't even pull hard. The bike had the brakes reversed left to right.

And if you've got cable disk brakes and they don't work very well, get them properly adjusted. Look to see if the disk bends when you apply the brake. If it does, loosen the two screws, hold the brake on and re-tighten. If that doesn't do the trick, find out how to adjust the stationary pad properly.

 

[GaRRy]

At this price, Wisper and Oxygen come to mind, but these all seem to have mechanical disks, as do more expensive bikes such as the BH Emotion.

I Don't know about other BH Emotion bikes but the NEO's Definitely have hydraulic disks

 

[Pedant]

To be fair my only experience of disc brakes on an ebike was a Wisper with a front cable operated disc and rear v brake which I repaired for my son. After carefully adjusting the disc it was much less effective than the rear brake which didn't need to be adjusted.

I'm sure you can pay a fortune and get wonderfully effective disc brakes, but I question whether it's worth it. As always this is down to opinion.

The professionals seem to descend the Alps ok with rim brakes though, but then perhaps professionals know how to control their bikes.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Ignoring cost,I would fit good hydraulic disc brakes to every bike,cables are always stretching (having said that the Shimano guy at Eurobike proved to me how much better the top range of Shimano cables are relative to the cheapest brands),the hydraulics self adjust. Also the feel of hydraulics returns so much feedback and control under braking.
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[GaRRy]

The professionals seem to descend the Alps ok with rim brakes though, but then perhaps professionals know how to control their bikes.

No thats because currently the UCI don't allow disk brakes for road races

 

[neptune]

Back in the 1960s I owned a 750cc Norton Atlas. It was capable of about 110 MPH. Did it have disc brakes? No. hydraulics? No. It used Drum brakes, cable operated on the front, and rod operated at the rear. The brakes were superb, and it did not use a twin leading shoe front brake. A few years back, I had a 535cc Yamaha, with a disc front brake. The front brake was a hydraulic. It was as good as the Norton brake, unless you carried a pillion passenger, when it was noticeably less effective. E bike brakes are a matter of preference, and a balancing act between cost, maintenance cost and efficiency. Vee brakes for me every time.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Back in the 1960s I owned a 750cc Norton Atlas. It was capable of about 110 MPH. Did it have disc brakes? No. hydraulics? No. It used Drum brakes, cable operated on the front, and rod operated at the rear. The brakes were superb, and it did not use a twin leading shoe front brake. A few years back, I had a 535cc Yamaha, with a disc front brake. The front brake was a hydraulic. It was as good as the Norton brake, unless you carried a pillion passenger, when it was noticeably less effective. E bike brakes are a matter of preference, and a balancing act between cost, maintenance cost and efficiency. Vee brakes for me every time.

Have you ever wiped off 180mph with one finger up a slip road. Again there's absolutely no comparison between a Norton hub brake and the twin disks with 6 pistons each that you get on a modern sports bike. I still have an A10 RGS replica. When I was building it, the first thing I did was upgrade the front brake to the 190mm Gold Star brake, but I'd be kidding anybody to tell them that it was anything better than my cooking version single disk twin piston caliper on my Honda NTV

Pedant, whether it's worth it or not is always debateable. Rim brakes can stop you safely and quickly in most circumstances. To me, there's no doubt that hydraulic brakes are easier, more consistant and more progressive, which makes them safer. You'll only know whether they're worth the difference when you need the difference, which is fairly rare, so my conclusion is that rim brakes are adequate, but, if you have money to spare, hydraulic disks are nicer. It's the same with the cheapest Chinese ebikes, they do the job pretty well. If you pay a lot more money, you can get a bike that has similar performance, but is nicer to use. Personally, I like them all.

 

[halfer]

Hi Bob

I'm pleased that the standard mech disk calipers have had a branded upgrade - even after I learned how to adjust the old ones they did suffer quite a bit from cable stretch and required frequent adjustment. You're right about the Hygia hydraulics though - they were pretty much perfect. Solid, consistent braking, with no adjustments at all.

A policy of component standardisation is a great move for Juicy, imo. Did you have any luck sourcing a cartridge-type bottom bracket for your latest designs?

Edit: it'd be worth updating your website with the Tektro info, otherwise people knowing the old spec may assume that this hasn't changed. Also, I'd say 20Kg is a touch too light for the weight; although it may have changed, it'll certainly increase with the higher-range batteries. My Sport 2010 (10Ah) was around 23Kg on the bathroom scales

 

[halfer]

Pedant, I'm not a follower of the Tour de France, but I should think those riders spend more time tuning their bikes than riding them! I am a reluctant mechanic, and will pay to minimise maintenance

 

[Pedant]

Just to put the brake discussion in context, and perhaps, to bed:

My ebike is a 20 year old hybrid made by British Eagle. It came with cantilever rim brakes which were a revelation compared with the side pull rim brakes I had previously used. My knees are no longer up to hills so last year I invested in an Alien (-ised 8Fun really) kit (the – ahem – off road version) and since the brake levers were only available with mechanical advantage appropriate for v brakes (or discs), I upgraded my rim brakes to the cheapest Shimano v brakes I could find and again I found the braking power and control a revelation. I can now, progressively, slow my bike to the point where I lock the wheels, completely under control. As I said in a previous post my only experience of discs on an ebike was not very good, but I guess this was a fairly old, budget setup,so from personal experience I favour the simplicity and cost effectiveness of v brakes.

Despite the capabilities of my kitted bike I seldom exceed the legal 15mph under power so perhaps my riding doesn’t demand the complexity of a hydraulic system.(I do, however, appreciate the effortless hill climbing ability.)

As to brake maintenance – yes, I guess my brakes may need to have cables adjusted every few years and perhaps I’ll take a look at the shoes and rims when I do that and deem them to be OK. I might even lubricate the pivots occasionally.

On the aside about drums versus discs on motorbikes and cars: Surely this is a completely different issue. I think the biggest limitation with drum brakes was lack of heat dissipation leading to overheating and fade. Discs are obviously far superior in this respect because they are open to the cooling air.

 

[neptune]

I think my post about the Norton drum brake was misunderstood. Obviously the multi piston disc brakes on a modern sports bike are far superior, but then the performance of the bike is much higher. On the Norton, you did not have the problem of slowing from 180 MPH, and it is unlikely that you would have that problem on an ebike, unless youre bike performs better than mine.
What I was saying was that the Norton had excellent brakes without the use of discs or hydraulics, so we should be able to stop an ebike without discs or hydraulics. Hydraulic discs and cable Vee brakes both have their advantages and disadvantages. It is good that we are free to choose either.

 

[flecc]

I upgraded my rim brakes to the cheapest Shimano v brakes I could find and again I found the braking power and control a revelation. I can now, progressively, slow my bike to the point where I lock the wheels, completely under control. As I said in a previous post my only experience of discs on an ebike was not very good, but I guess this was a fairly old, budget setup,so from personal experience I favour the simplicity and cost effectiveness of v brakes.

On the aside about drums versus discs on motorbikes and cars: Surely this is a completely different issue. I think the biggest limitation with drum brakes was lack of heat dissipation leading to overheating and fade. Discs are obviously far superior in this respect because they are open to the cooling air.

Indeed, there are no grounds for cycle and car/motorcycle braking comparisons.

In theory on bicycles a rim brake could be vastly superior to a disc brake, simply because disc diameter is the dominant factor in brake power and the bike's rim is a far larger diameter disc brake. It's only the factors like rim strength and wear that limit practical rim brake performance.