Hybrid cars

While having coffee break this morning a Father and Son came by and starting chatting about my e-bike. The discussion moved on to electric cars and the son told me he had recently purchased a hybrid VW Golf. He gets about 30 miles out of the battery from it, but as his work commute is only 12 miles round trip he can often go weeks and weeks without having to fuel up.

 

He said he paid about £4000 extra for the hybrid version compared to the standard but was extremely pleased with his purchase. Now I know this is an e-bike forum but I also know some of you (flecc) have electric cars so I would value your thoughts on hybrid vehicles.

Most are ideal for the many who have the occasional long journey but mostly drive around town for shopping, school trips, shorter commutes up to 20 miles or so. So for most of their driving time they aren't polluting urban areas with exhaust output or noise. That's so long as they don't put their foot down hard to accelerate fast, since that can start the petrol engine, even when they've selected electric only.

 

The above comments are for the small battery plug-in hybrids like that Golf and the Mitsubishi and Kia ones, plenty more coming soon. They switch between petrol drive and electric drive.

 

Another type drive on electric all the time using a much larger battery, but with a quite large petrol engine starting to run a generator and charge the battery when necessary to greatly extend the range. There are two allowing up to 80 miles electric only before the petrol engine starts to top up the battery. They are the Chevrolet Volt and the Chinese BYD hybrid. BMW also make their extended range version of the i3 model, but that uses a full size e-car battery and only a tiny 600cc twin cyclinder charge engine which has very limited range extension. These second types of plug-in hybrid aren't very popular.

 

I ignore the so called "self-charging" hybrids pushed by Toyota since they miss the point of getting economical running using cheap mains electricity, which can easily mean 200 mpg cost equivalence when running on electricity.

 

I'm currently running at 157 mpg cost equivalence in my Leaf, but if I bothered to switch to charging on night rate electricity that would be 278 mpg. I don't bother though since I'm low mileage.

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Edited March 22, 20197 yr by flecc

While having coffee break this morning a Father and Son came by and starting chatting about my e-bike. The discussion moved on to electric cars and the son told me he had recently purchased a hybrid VW Golf. He gets about 30 miles out of the battery from it, but as his work commute is only 12 miles round trip he can often go weeks and weeks without having to fuel up.

 

He said he paid about £4000 extra for the hybrid version compared to the standard but was extremely pleased with his purchase. Now I know this is an e-bike forum but I also know some of you (flecc) have electric cars so I would value your thoughts on hybrid vehicles.

Good for the environment, but he has to do over 50,000 miles of just electric driving to break even financially. That's not going to happen unless he can use it to avoid congestion charges.

 

My car's pretty economical. I filled it up four times last year, so about £240 annual fuel cost. Electric cars are going to have to become a lot cheaper before I can justify one financially.

Good for the environment, but he has to do over 50,000 miles of just electric driving to break even financially. That's not going to happen unless he can use it to avoid congestion charges.

 

My car's pretty economical. I filled it up four times last year, so about £240 annual fuel cost. Electric cars are going to have to become a lot cheaper before I can justify one financially.

 

I didn't cover that aspect of hybrids, but they are certainly worse than e-cars. I paid £25,500 for my Leaf, but the alternative hybrids from Mitsubishi and Kia were well over £30,000 and of course there's far less saving over petrol with them. The case for electric cars and especially hybrids is mainly for the local environment.

 

It's much closer when considering a top of the range i.c car though. My Leaf is a direct competitor for the Focus and the simlarly equipped top of the range Focus was very close to what I paid at the time.

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I don't have a car I have a pedelec. Oh, and a trike (that's for sport)... Last week I brought back 40 kg of organic compost and clay beads from the garden center. Must have cost me about 2% of a kWh (@ 0.13€). I'm going to grow my own salad

I'll never understand why the EU didn't make all manufacturers selling within the EU have some sort of 'standard' charging port fitted on every car ( In addition to the car manufacturers preference).

 

This lack of standardisation is going to impede the take up of EV's and make it difficult for hotels/shops/car parks/ workplaces make a commitment to providing chargers. I know 80% of charging is done at home, but any 30k car I buy is going to have to do some touring.

 

It's a deal breaker for me at the moment.

While having coffee break this morning a Father and Son came by and starting chatting about my e-bike. The discussion moved on to electric cars and the son told me he had recently purchased a hybrid VW Golf. He gets about 30 miles out of the battery from it, but as his work commute is only 12 miles round trip he can often go weeks and weeks without having to fuel up.

 

He said he paid about £4000 extra for the hybrid version compared to the standard but was extremely pleased with his purchase. Now I know this is an e-bike forum but I also know some of you (flecc) have electric cars so I would value your thoughts on hybrid vehicles.

Electric cars are to my mind a con, only hybrids offer the flexibility oflong or short jouneys, plus if the batter has to be replaced (unlikely), the costs will be tiny in comparison to that of a full electric car.

I occasionally have to drive a 1000 Kms or more, electric does not cut the mustard......It was a good idea for companies with short distance needs like milkman's trucks, the postman etc.. And for some people who hardly ever go anywhere far!!

regards

Andy

I occasionally have to drive a 1000 Kms or more, electric does not cut the mustard......It was a good idea for companies with short distance needs like milkman's trucks, the postman etc.. And for some people who hardly ever go anywhere far!!

 

E-cars are certainly not a con Andy, I think you have things the wrong way round. Only a minority drive long distances like 1000 km as you do. The great majority of owners do far lower mileages and rarely or never drive long distances. For example:

 

Insurance stats show females who are around half of all car drivers average not much over 5000 miles year, so that 100 miles a week equates to less than a charge a week on today's e-cars. Obviously they aren't driving very long distances.

 

The same stats show male drivers average 9000 miles per annum, so once the high mileage drivers like you are deducted, the rest are doing very much less.

 

The very high proportion of retired in our population are also mainly low mileage drivers.

 

There are very many two or more car families and quite a few have found an e-car is an ideal one to include, it often becoming the popular pool car that they all use locally. If you've ever driven a modern e-car you'd know how much nicer they are to drive in urban traffic conditions.

 

Four years ago I'd have readily agreed with you on electric cars, but things change rapidly in developing technologies. Today's e-cars with 160 to 230 mile ranges cover the needs of the great majority of drivers.

 

And I have to disagree on hybrid car costs. They cost more than equivalent e-cars to start with, their costs per mile on fuel are far greater and their service costs over time are much higher, e-car services being particularly very low cost. And e-cars don't pay VED (road tax), have a far larger purchase subsidy, sometimes have free car parking and charging and are exempt any congestion/pollution charges and the like.

 

So that's large savings on all of those with e-cars.

 

Only the replacement battery cost is much higher, but with today's warranties that's amortised over 8 years and IS COVERED by all the savings above.

 

An example is aNissan Leaf like mine. Today after government subsidy it costs £28,000 before any discounts. The nearest equivalent hybrid I had on offer, the Mitsubishi, today costs just under £36,000 after smaller subsidy. That £8000 difference is the price of a new battery for mine, even without all the other savings on an e-car.

 

That's the hybrid's achilles heel, you have to pay for petrol car propulsion and most of an electric car's as well. For the majority who don't drive very long distances, that makes no sense

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Anyone any thoughts on electric motorcycles? I was reading this morning in Bike magazine that HD are due to bring out a new electric motorcycle towards the end of the year. Named the Livewire it looks quite nice but at £29,000 its about £19,000 more than what I would be willing to pay for a motorcycle.

 

How near do you folks think we are to someone bringing out a decent e-motorcycle for around the £10,000 to £12,000 level?

How near do you folks think we are to someone bringing out a decent e-motorcycle for around the £10,000 to £12,000 level?

 

I think they are a long way off yet. I'm reminded of the Vectra e-scooter which was a great machine and very nice to ride. But launched at £7000 it just couldn't get acceptance at so much more than the best petrol ones. So they tried dropping it to £6000 which was marginal for them, but it still didn't sell so they folded.

 

If e-drive can't make it in the scooter market where it's so much more suited, I don't think it will in motorcycles where riders often have a very different set of priorities, many if not most owning them only for leisure use.

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I think they are a long way off yet. I'm reminded of the Vectra e-scooter which was a great machine and very nice to ride. But launched at £7000 it just couldn't get acceptance at so much more than the best petrol ones. So they tried dropping it to £6000 which was marginal for them, but it still didn't sell so they folded.

 

If e-drive can't make it in the scooter market where it's so much more suited, I don't think it will in motorcycles where riders often have a very different set of priorities, many if not most owning them only for leisure use.

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Last year I tried a Zero 11kw...(Learner legal) Cant remember model but was stunned by how quick it was, no way on earth an ICE 11kw (15bhp) could keep up with it. Range was supposed to be around 120miles but road tests found it nearer 70...Thats enough for a ride around on a Sunday PM???. Was a silly price (£8500) but for the few who havent got bike licesnse and cant be bothered and have a spare £9k or so lying around then I could see it finding a niche market... But mainstream...cant see it.

Last year I tried a Zero 11kw...(Learner legal) Cant remember model but was stunned by how quick it was, no way on earth an ICE 11kw (15bhp) could keep up with it.

 

Yes, true of all e-vehicles, having maximum torque from zero revs makes the acceleration astonishing.

 

Upping the power on my 2018 Leaf by 40% has made them embarrassing in town, needing feather light touch on the pedal in traffic. I leave it in Eco in all urban conditions now, which reduces the power and increases the regen to give enough braking for all normal slowing so it's one pedal driving. However it still seems to out-accelerate everything else.

 

I can't imagine what this years limited edition e-plus Leaf is like, since that's doubled the 2017's power.

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E-cars are certainly not a con Andy, I think you have things the wrong way round. Only a minority drive long distances like 1000 km as you do. The great majority of owners do far lower mileages and rarely or never drive long distances. For example:

 

Insurance stats show females who are around half of all car drivers average not much over 5000 miles year, so that 100 miles a week equates to less than a charge a week on today's e-cars. Obviously they aren't driving very long distances.

 

The same stats show male drivers average 9000 miles per annum, so once the high mileage drivers like you are deducted, the rest are doing very much less.

 

The very high proportion of retired in our population are also mainly low mileage drivers.

 

There are very many two or more car families and quite a few have found an e-car is an ideal one to include, it often becoming the popular pool car that they all use locally. If you've ever driven a modern e-car you'd know how much nicer they are to drive in urban traffic conditions.

 

Four years ago I'd have readily agreed with you on electric cars, but things change rapidly in developing technologies. Today's e-cars with 160 to 230 mile ranges cover the needs of the great majority of drivers.

 

And I have to disagree on hybrid car costs. They cost more than equivalent e-cars to start with, their costs per mile on fuel are far greater and their service costs over time are much higher, e-car services being particularly very low cost. And e-cars don't pay VED (road tax), have a far larger purchase subsidy, sometimes have free car parking and charging and are exempt any congestion/pollution charges and the like.

 

So that's large savings on all of those with e-cars.

 

Only the replacement battery cost is much higher, but with today's warranties that's amortised over 8 years and IS COVERED by all the savings above.

 

An example is aNissan Leaf like mine. Today after government subsidy it costs £28,000 before any discounts. The nearest equivalent hybrid I had on offer, the Mitsubishi, today costs just under £36,000 after smaller subsidy. That £8000 difference is the price of a new battery for mine, even without all the other savings on an e-car.

 

That's the hybrid's achilles heel, you have to pay for petrol car propulsion and most of an electric car's as well. For the majority who don't drive very long distances, that makes no sense

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Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so don't EVER try to tell me I am wrong. Tat is simply rude and demonstrates poor manners.

I have been on this earth for almost 73 years, I studied and became an engineer, I also tell the truth, always.

Many governments and lesser mortals have been taken in by the e-car.

You are simply one of them. There are many. That does not make it a good decision....

Mostly its simply because some/most people do not have the background and the technical knowledge knowledge to understand anything other that a politicians opinion, therefore not my problem in the slightest!

Please believe what you want. You prerogative of course....

But never ever tell me I am wrong! It your "opinion" only!

Understood?

Andy

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so don't EVER try to tell me I am wrong. Tat is simply rude and demonstrates poor manners.

I have been on this earth for almost 73 years, I studied and became an engineer, I also tell the truth, always.

Many governments and lesser mortals have been taken in by the e-car.

You are simply one of them. There are many. That does not make it a good decision....

Mostly its simply because some/most people do not have the background and the technical knowledge knowledge to understand anything other that a politicians opinion, therefore not my problem in the slightest!

Please believe what you want. You prerogative of course....

But never ever tell me I am wrong! It your "opinion" only!

Understood?

Andy

 

I'm genuinely sorry that I've offended you Andy, that was certainly not my intention so I apologise for my perhaps clumsy wording. However I didn't say you were wrong, I said only that I thought you were, so that was my opinion only.

 

Politicians opinions don't come into my e-car assessment and it was very wrong of you to say I'd been conned by them. I'm somewhat older than you, ex motor trade with lifelong driving experience and plenty of technical experience as a qualified mechanic so make my own judgements on usefulness. For me and many others whose usage is suited to an e-car, they are definitely not a con and I genuinely don't understand how you can say that.

 

I accept that one is no use to you and other high mileage drivers, but I won't have it that I've been conned when you have no idea of my reasons for driving electric. I've liked the characteristics of e-cars for some years but didn't buy one before since they couldn't meet my needs at the time. But with the advances as of last year a couple of affordable ones did, so I bought and haven't regretted it for one moment since. I will never own an i.c. car again, such is my e-car's superiority for my usage and circumstances.

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flecc can you see the price of e-cars coming down in the next couple of years to that of a similar spec i.c. car? I know they have much lower running costs so over say a 6 or 7 year period the costs are probably very similar. However it is still a big chuck of money (for me anyway) to splash out up front for an e-car in comparison to an i.c. car.

According to an American bloke on James May's TV show recently, he can make petrol by heating carbon dioxide in a solar furnace - completely carbon neutral! ***IF*** the process becomes viable, then we can all go back to being petrol heads with a clear conscience.

 

On the other hand, Andy-Matt will likely be too old to drive by the time we are all forced into having electric cars, so it won't really worry him.

 

I'm hoping to see an affordable electric with a realistic 250 mile range sometime soon (i.e. before my current car conks out) - that would let me see the grandchildren without having to worry about finding a charging point away from home.

 

In the longer term, we probably won't be owning our own cars - just getting one from the pool when it's needed, so the fear of huge battery replacement costs won't be a worry.

flecc can you see the price of e-cars coming down in the next couple of years to that of a similar spec i.c. car? I know they have much lower running costs so over say a 6 or 7 year period the costs are probably very similar. However it is still a big chuck of money (for me anyway) to splash out up front for an e-car in comparison to an i.c. car.

 

They can compare on cost now with the top of the range specification cars. For example, my Leaf is the same size as a Ford Focus and is very fully equipped, needing no extras added and I paid £25,500 after the government subsidy and dealer discount.

 

The top of the range Focus Vignale is listed at £25,800, no government subsidy of course but maybe dealer discounts, so my Leaf just beat that.

 

But with entry level models e-cars can't compete. The entry level Leaf after subsidy costs £21,990, the entry level Focus costs £18,300, so some £3690 less.

 

Some of that will be offset of course, no road tax each year, ability to have 200 mpg fuel cost, low annual service cost and sometimes other benefits like free parking and free charge points.

 

For a car commuter into Central London a Leaf is completely free and can even make a profit! That's because it doesn't pay the £11.50 a day congestion charge which over the 8 year battery life for a five day a week 220 days a year driver amounts to £24,000, which pays for the Leaf. Then the road tax is also saved, plus the huge fuel saving, not to mention the Leaf will still be worth a few thousand if sold, so that's all profit and one can then start all over again with another new Leaf if the conditions are the same.

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Edited March 23, 20197 yr by flecc

I see there`s a 3 year warranty but what concerns me is that battery warranty - what on earth do they mean `gradual capacity loss coverage`? So for example the battery dies after 7 years they replace it foc??

 

Every Nissan LEAF is backed by a New Vehicle Limited Warranty that includes 36-month/60,000 miles (whichever occurs earlier) basic coverage; 60-month/60,000 miles (whichever occurs earlier) powertrain and electric vehicle system coverage and 96-month/100,000 miles (whichever occurs earlier) Lithium-Ion Battery gradual capacity loss coverage*

So for example the battery dies after 7 years they replace it foc??

 

Replace or bring it back to spec by cell replacement. The 8 year warranty guarantees it won't drop below 75% capacity at any time during that period.

 

The cells in the Leaf battery are not like our highly stressed ones in e-bikes. They are larger and much lower density so suffer far less stress in any conditions. Add to that the fact that most of the car's life it will be operating at only a fraction of its full performance and you can see that means even less cell stress.

 

I'm fully expecting to drive past ten years with mine unchanged, due to my ways of using and charging it.

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Replace or bring it back to spec by cell replacement. The 8 year warranty guarantees it won't drop below 75% capacity at any time during that period.

 

 

idk id probable kill it in 12 months if i could drive pmsl they dont tell you how far it will go at full speed as you dont wanna know lol

I hear battery technology is due to move forward over the next five years or so. Batteries will become cheaper, carry more power for size and charge more quickly. This will make electric cars more viable for everyone and I expect sales to really take off. Hyundai appear to be somewhere near the front of the pack at the moment developing a solid state Li battery. Others are looking to make batteries out of more abundant materials = much cheaper. The problem is that there are likely to be a number of competing technologies for batteries so it will be a bit like VHS vs Beta vs Phillips for a few years.

 

I would like to see an annual Lands End to John O'Groats EV run with ordinary everyday production EVs. This would show just how viable or not they really are. It would also show progress over the years as times to complete the journey reduce. I expect that within five or six years the journey time will be very similar to or only say half an hour more than an internal combustion engined car.

 

As EVs become the norm sales of petrol and diesel will reduce. The reduction in volume will lead to processing and distribution becoming less efficient so the price will start to rise.

 

At some point in the future ebikes will feel the benefit of the billions that automotive manufacturers are ploughing into battery research.

I wish an electric vehicle would suit me, I really do.

I'm 65 and totally debt free. I live rurally (nearest bank branch is now a 28 mile round journey) in a terraced house with no driveway or garage. I've never had the capital, or wish, to own a new car (the initial depreciation I find staggering). Nearest family live a three and a half hour drive away.

So it seems that the only version would suit would be a self charging hybrid, and they just don't make sense to me. Carrying the weight of a standard i.c. engine and drive train (inc. fuel load), plus an electric motor/generator, plus a battery - how on earth does all that weight stack up to lower fuel consumption?

Now the all electric vehicle with range extender idea seems much more viable to me. An i.c. engine tuned to run at the specific revs that a generator needs (say 1000rpm) would surely be far more fuel efficient than one that needs to cover a broad rev/power band. Emissions and noise could then be very tightly controlled. The vehicle would lack the weight of a convential drive train so would be able to achieve very high mpg equivalent, I would think. Alas the need to still plug in to charge would still make this a no go for me.

 

Also, I wonder what type of second hand market there will ever be for e.v.'s? The used vehicle sales arena generally doesn't have a glowing reputation. 'Honest John' telling me that,'This batteries a minter mate' and offering a 3 month guarentee, isn't going to work here. There's going to need to be some sort of testing/reporting system for the battery condition, that makes sense to the public, yet has transparency - that's a big ask.

 

I am on the cusp of needing to replace an old vehicle (a long serving Vitara - bought for it's general road/4 wheel/trailor towing ability). Sadly I think it's going to have to be another i.c. car and I fully expect to be having to pay emissions charges when going to see family. I can also forsee such vehicles being banned from an increasing number of cities and towns limiting holiday expeditions.

I'm hoping to see an affordable electric with a realistic 250 mile range sometime soon (i.e. before my current car conks out) - that would let me see the grandchildren without having to worry about finding a charging point away from home.

 

The affordable bit is the snag, it's likely to be around 8 years before the prices of i.c. and e-cars start to match. That's when the various bans on i.c use start to bite more and production of them is reduced as e-car production rises.

 

There's affordable ones with half that range so it might be worth investigating the available charge points. There's thousands of them now and some places are very well served with numbers of rapid points.

 

Member Cyclezee is an e-car fan living at Milton Keynes and driving a Renault Zoe and he sometimes drives several hundred miles north without any problems. His car has a warm weather range of up to about 170 miles so he probably charges at about 130 mile intervals.

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idk id probable kill it in 12 months if i could drive pmsl they dont tell you how far it will go at full speed as you dont wanna know lol

 

Yes they do, my Leaf for example they declare maximum at 89 mph. It's one of the superiorities of e-cars that they don't have to have top speeds far over the legal limits everywhere that an i.c car's engine limitations end up with.

 

If that seems baffling, I'll happily explain why.

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I'm genuinely sorry that I've offended you Andy, that was certainly not my intention so I apologise for my perhaps clumsy wording. However I didn't say you were wrong, I said only that I thought you were, so that was my opinion only.

 

Politicians opinions don't come into my e-car assessment and it was very wrong of you to say I'd been conned by them. I'm somewhat older than you, ex motor trade with lifelong driving experience and plenty of technical experience as a qualified mechanic so make my own judgements on usefulness. For me and many others whose usage is suited to an e-car, they are definitely not a con and I genuinely don't understand how you can say that.

 

I accept that one is no use to you and other high mileage drivers, but I won't have it that I've been conned when you have no idea of my reasons for driving electric. I've liked the characteristics of e-cars for some years but didn't buy one before since they couldn't meet my needs at the time. But with the advances as of last year a couple of affordable ones did, so I bought and haven't regretted it for one moment since. I will never own an i.c. car again, such is my e-car's superiority for my usage and circumstances.

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Thank you for the apology.

Over the next 25 to 50 years, better batteries and better cars with very rapid recharging and much more "miles" under the bonnet will be developed. But "NOW" they are simply not good enough for many of us, me included, and I am retired!

I am visiting the UK at this time, and getting here from the middle of Germany only took 8 hours for nearly 800km (Diesel Car!) distance. I am on my own, and tend to stop less, also no caravan on this trip!

Even with a modern e-car, I suggest that it would take at least twice that time, probably with an extra hotel stay = more money!

I usually come to the UK with a 1.5 ton caravan, another impossible feat for an e-car! Furthermore, I live in a country with relatively warm/hot (above 40°C) summers and cold winters,(down to -28°C where I live some winters) needing both AC or heating at the appropriate times, seriously reducing the possible distances to be traveled, before recharging.

A Hybrid is the only "modern" answer that does a reasonable job for all distances, and will probably stay that way, at least till atomic fusion makes some serious breakthroughs ! The Chinese have recently made some important steps, achieving 100 million °C (hotter than the Sun) for 10 seconds!!!

I personally doubt that any really serious changes with batteries will happen till I am long "gone", the need for at least 1000 KM range, and full AC or heating as well!!

Then it will start to become interesting for many more people!!

You are one of the people that the current technology suits. Good for you, but wait till a battery replacement is eventually needed.......the current thought is 5-8 years of life expectancy, then a new /refurbished battery, most likely at a higher cost that the residual value of the car at that time!!!

That will remain until the battery technology is not only at least 10 times better in distance/power and only say a tenth of the current price to replace! Several new battery types in development are sowing promise. Once they appear, the current cars will become valueless!!

There are several examples of the REAL cost of an electric car today, including everything from manufacturing and 10 years approximate usage. They actually cost more over that period, and are just as dirty to make, as many more conventional models! But you have to do your "homework" very very carefully!!!

Plus we should not forget that the batteries can cause serious fires and explosions (a lot of e-bikers have experience that already!). Recently, here in Germany a car transporter caught fire, which burnt the cars as well.

Two of the cars were BRAND NEW ELECTRIC CARS, and once the batteries were on fire, the local fire department could not cool them enough to extinguish them!

They fought the e-batteries on those two cars ONLY, for more than 12 hours.

Autobahn closed, no traffic could use that side of the autobahn, till a huge tank had been procured, transported there, then filled with water, and each car had to be totally immersed and completely cooled down, an hour each car!. That is the first video.

The clean up costs millions after such a fire, and will have to be eventually put on the insurance premiums of such cars, that is now happening in Germany. Insurance costs are certainly starting to "dampen" the speed at which electric cars are being bought! Apparently, most sales are lost this way, IF insurance is checked first....

People have died in car fires since cars were first made, usually due to being in a road accident, but it is happening that e-cars are spontaneously catching fire, NO ACCIDENT, and the people inside did not have time to exit.

I want nothing to do with the current technology on that point alone......burnt to death is not my chosen way of exiting this world!! Even if it is fairly rare, though looking on YouTube, it appears to be not as rare as many owners would hope!!

The poison gases produced by a battery are apparently partly to blame for deaths, disabling the people before they can get out! A good reason to drive a diesel!!

My children are grown up, but they also do not feel that the time is right for this technology either, neither do their spouses!!!

regards

Andy

PS. This may prove interesting to read:- https://ecowarriorprincess.net/2018/09/electric-cars-how-much-they-really-cost-the-environment-3/

The children involved in collecting Cobalt for Lithium battery production in Africa have also a pretty poor time of it as well! Many do not even know this!!!:- https://www.cbsnews.com/news/children-cobalt-mining-congo-cbsnews-investigation-ziki-swaze/