I think you're completely misunderstanding what a lot of riders want. They're not wanting lots of assistance, just some assistance at higher speeds with the hope of a reasonable range.
Hung for a sheep or lamb.....
- Thread starter Kudoscycles
- Start date
I think our "UK Off Road, S-Pedelecs and Overseas" forum confuses the rider types by lumping them all together.
There's a world of difference between the enthusiast cyclist who wants a degree of assistance with roadie speeds and the person who wants plenty of power to drive a bike at 30 mph or more.
There are so many subdivisions in cycling that no one law or group will satisfy more than a minority.
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I dont really see the point of this thread. Saying someone should go for excessively more power just because they want slightly more power over the legal limit doesn't make sense.
I drive my car and motorcycle slightly over the speed limit sometimes, like most people do, but that doesn't mean i would drive 30/40/50 mph over whatever the limit is, it would be reckless.
I think the legal 15.5 mph is too slow on the road, so i'm prepared to take that to around 20mph for my next kit. Its still illegal but i dont consider it reckless so i dont really care that its not legal.
As for the no throttle law, well i have no respect for that law, so i will carry on fitting throttles.
For me personally its all about being sensible about how much extra power you want and when & where to use that extra power, dont take the **** and its unlikely to cause yourself or anyone else a problem.
If some people want even more power than me, well its their choice, i'm not going to dictate to anyone else what they should do.
I drive my car and motorcycle slightly over the speed limit sometimes, like most people do, but that doesn't mean i would drive 30/40/50 mph over whatever the limit is, it would be reckless.
I think the legal 15.5 mph is too slow on the road, so i'm prepared to take that to around 20mph for my next kit. Its still illegal but i dont consider it reckless so i dont really care that its not legal.
As for the no throttle law, well i have no respect for that law, so i will carry on fitting throttles.
For me personally its all about being sensible about how much extra power you want and when & where to use that extra power, dont take the **** and its unlikely to cause yourself or anyone else a problem.
If some people want even more power than me, well its their choice, i'm not going to dictate to anyone else what they should do.
The whole issue of having throttles will disappear. The mainland EU haven't had legal independently acting throttles since 1999, some 16 years, with the result that no-one mentions them or feels the need.
Since all new pedelecs will not have throttles from Friday this week, the same will happen here in the UK.
This entire forum's UK membership is under 7% of the UK's e-bikers and a very high proportion of the forum members ride entirely legal pedelecs anyway. The enthusiast members who will keep throttles for a while will be an ever reducing minority of the country's e-bikers.
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Since all new pedelecs will not have throttles from Friday this week, the same will happen here in the UK.
This entire forum's UK membership is under 7% of the UK's e-bikers and a very high proportion of the forum members ride entirely legal pedelecs anyway. The enthusiast members who will keep throttles for a while will be an ever reducing minority of the country's e-bikers.
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we still have a high proportion of new e-bike purchasers in their 60s and 70s here in comparison with the continental purchasers, I think the throttle as starting aid (limited to 4mph) may still be a valid selling point for years. They are more often perceived as useful by elderly women riders.
Starting aids can be fitted here on the continent but they aren't. All the French electric bike sites have illegal throttles for sale however. The thing is I have not seen a bike with a kit on it since I built mine. All the pedelecs I have seen are brands or cheap Chinese bikes sold in supermarkets!
I agree. My post was in reply to KD's idea of a 1KW CD e-bike, made in China. I think the people who need that kind of speed are a very small minority, there is a much bigger demand for cargo bikes that need that kind of power and that the forum posts do not reflect the market shares precisely. You see many more posts about dongles than about cargo bikes. Only German bikes need dongles. Hence my view that the significant proportion of these posts (in favour of dongles) would not be representative of the real market potential for his KW CD e-bike.
I may be proven wrong, mind you, that if KD makes it, a lot of members would buy it.
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I don't think our proportion of elderly riders is any higher than in The Netherlands for example, where they commonly ride into their 80s and 90s.
Of course the need is perceived to be higher here due to our terrain, but I am still sure this market will disappear as it did in the much hillier Austria and hilly parts of Germany. I'm betting that in ten years time there will be little mention of throttles in this forum and none outside of it.
I'm not against throttles and would have been happier if we'd been able to retain them, but I don't see their loss as a serious problem. Throttles certainly did us no sales favours, judging by the far greater success of pedelecs in mainland Europe.
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I think it does flecc. My wife and I love riding our e-bikes in France whenever we can, always enjoy it, never got frightened by traffic because the infrastructure is so generous towards biking. There is absolutely no perceived need for a throttle there. But riding in London is the opposite, the throttle is proven useful on many occasions. My wife would not ride her e-bike without a throttle.
I agree on the usefulness in traffic, and have found the same myself. But that's rideability. I still say throttles have done us no sales favours on the facts. The Netherlands have over ten times our e-bike sales with just over a quarter of our population, and all are pedelecs. Germany also outsells us by anm immense margin, and again with pedelecs.
So throttles haven't been a successful selling point in the UK mass market. I think I can make a good case that they've damaged sales!
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We had an interesting discussion over Christmas holiday about why most cylist fatalities in London are women and whether more women cyclists should take on e-bikes in London. My son's argument is that women would not take on e-bikes because they perceive e-bikes as giving more speed and more speed = more danger. Would you agree with that argument?
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On the evidence of my eyes I doubt that. The female cycling commuters I see mostly try to ride as fast as the male bike commuters, which in London is typically hard pressed riding at 20 mph or near. So I can't see 15 mph e-bikes putting them off.
Of course we seem to have cracked the female v truck accident problem anyway. Eight London cycling deaths total in the first six months this year, 6 of them female v truck, commensurate with the usual level of up to double those each year.
But this second six months no deaths at all, following the publicity drive by so many of us to solve this problem. Clearly at last they've listened and learnt, all we have to do is ensure we keep it that way. That's some eight people who were able to enjoy this Christmas and look forward to a New Year who wouldn't otherwise have been able to on past history, which makes me happy.
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I placed this thread because if you read the current crop of 'which bike should I buy' ,in response to hill climbing without pedalling,more speed,more power....and that is a common theme running through this forum,that is not the norm when selling pedelecs to the populace,it is unique to this forum.
Mostly they get told they need an S-class with a dongle or a BBS with 500 watts or 48v x30 amps.....my point is that all the forum responses are that the only solution to these people's wishes is to go illegal.
But there doesn't seem to be a volume produced illegal bike that from the box does what these people want....the minute you add a dongle or up the amps you make the bike illegal so why not go the whole hog and build a powerful bike that will do all these things,without the hassle of a kit or dongle.
I suspect that people feel less guilty if they buy a bike that they consider is 'only a little bit illegal'....but there are not degrees of illegality,there are no grey areas,it is either legal or illegal....but would you sign a disclaimer stating that the bike is for 'private land use only,with the land owners permission and is not registered for UK cycle use?
I remember one of the S-class sellers stating that the bike he was selling was only 'slightly illegal and who cares anyway'. I actually think that if I built a batch of 1kw x 30 mph e-bikes the demand would be minimal because I am being too honest about the illegality,it leaves no margin for innocence of the law.......Really officer my super fast e-bike is illegal,I didn't know that,the dealer told me it was ok,hehe !!!!!!!
Therein lies the difference,how many forum members would buy an illegal bike,say to S-class spec if they were compelled to sign a disclaimer knowing that it is illegal to ride on UK roads or tracks. How many people would buy a German S-class bike from a UK dealer or get a UK dealer to fit a dongle knowing that it is illegal but not asked to sign such a disclaimer. I suspect the latter would outsell the former 10:1 but the reality of responsibility on the owner is the same,innocence is blind!
The recent events about hoverboards is an indicator of what could happen....the spate of fires and the sad death of the 15 year old riding one has pretty much destroyed the market for this device....the police have been told to have a vendetta to get them off the road or pavement,they are illegal,Amazon and Tesco have recalled them.....at the recent NEC cycle show the Chinese guys next to me were selling lots,I wonder how many are in arguments over returning them,now they are of no use?
KudosDave
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Factoid |ˈfaktɔɪd| noun
An item of unreliable information that is reported and repeated so often that it becomes accepted as fact.
This forum, seemingly brim-full of experts and lawyers, produces an extraordinary number of factoids in a similar vein to that above, where one person's subjective view is couched in terms such that readers might imagine that the stated position is the norm or, that the premise described is well known among those intimately involved with the pursuit.
Joseph Goebbels told the world, 'If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.'
A lot of the content in many threads should therefore be viewed with caution as the truth is a stranger in many parts of this forum.
Tom
Whether it's widely supported I don't know Tom, but I supported what Trex posted from personal experience. After my first pedelec bike and then having a powerful enough throttle controlled one, I found a circumstance where squeezing between/past close stationary vehicles in heavily trafficked roads was so much easier with a throttle. That was when the response of the pedelec unit could be too awkward to apply correctly without first back pedalling a bit to get more finesse in operation. With a throttle it was child's play. I've no doubt that's dependent on the particular pairing of bikes, but the experience was factual and easily repeatable.
Of course that was a throttle bike advantage, the relative disadvantage of the pedelec in this respect is also true for an unpowered bike as I know from experience.
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I've shown dozens of people how to ride an e-bike. As it's often the case, many elderly women have not ridden much in the last twenty years. Their legs are not what they used to be. The most successful method is to start riding with the throttle. Everyone gets it right in seconds and I can see the instant e-bike grin on their faces. Later, they may not need the throttle but will still remember how useful it was to them. Men usually don't have the same problem with weak legs.
Because men are additionally powered by pride, unwilling to admit or show any weakness?Why only elderly WOMEN riders??
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