how much would petrol need to increase to change driving habits

[flecc]

We opted for a mitsubishi PHEV rather than a full ev, 95% of the miles we do are on ev and we're very happy with it. The relevance to this topic is I can't believe how relaxed my driving style has become,

The incredible relaxed driving style is the same for me with my full electric car, but not for range reasons, simply because the precise electric control, smoothness and silence is so relaxing.

I think e-cars will greatly reduce urban accidents, contrary to those who think their silence will lead to more.
.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

Petrol prices have already increased by a factor of 1,818
Lets check my maths here. I can remember paying 6shillings and 6pence for a gallon of petrol. That's equivalent to 32.5 new pence per GALLON ! Divide that into the current price per gallon (I used £1.30/litre) and you get 1818. That hasn't changed behaviour so I don't think price ever will.
It will take a huge re-education largely based on, 'This is the only planet we've got and we're very close to making uninhabitable'. That's you and me, myself, I. The days of, 'They should do something about it' are over. Self elected Individual responsibility, that's the only thing that's gonna do it.
I gotta say, I'm not hopeful.

I make that a factor of 181.8, still a big number though.

 

[iRider]

Every price increase already changes driving habits.. Unfortunately fuel duty and production costs are a blunt instrument and impact disproportionately upon the poorer in our communities. So whilst it has already driven vast numbers of the low paid out of their cars and onto public transport or even out of work, it has done nothing to impact upon the habits of the higher paid. What it has definitely not done is make any impact what so ever on global carbon gases.

 

[Nealh]

We will see more of that which Flecc has mentioned regarding speed limits.
The Sq mile in the city is to become a compulsory 15mph limit and rest of London is to become a 20mph limit.

 

[trevor brooker]

Classic example this morning. I was riding along a residential street, heard a siren, looked in my mirror & saw a couple of cars behind me & behind them an ambulance with its blue lights flashing.
Yes- both cars overtook me, forcing the ambulance to overtake the cars overtaking me.
It's not education that some motorists need, first driving lesion - mirror signal manoeuvre.
I assume that drivers do not regard bikes as road vehicles, but rather obstacles to be negotiated, hence the normal rules of the road do not apply

 

[Deleted member 25121]

Classic example this morning. I was riding along a residential street, heard a siren, looked in my mirror & saw a couple of cars behind me & behind them an ambulance with its blue lights flashing.
Yes- both cars overtook me, forcing the ambulance to overtake the cars overtaking me.
It's not education that some motorists need, first driving lesion - mirror signal manoeuvre.
I assume that drivers do not regard bikes as road vehicles, but rather obstacles to be negotiated, hence the normal rules of the road do not apply

Out of interest, do you drive a car?

 

[iRider]

Classic example this morning. I was riding along a residential street, heard a siren, looked in my mirror & saw a couple of cars behind me & behind them an ambulance with its blue lights flashing.
Yes- both cars overtook me, forcing the ambulance to overtake the cars overtaking me.
It's not education that some motorists need, first driving lesion - mirror signal manoeuvre.
I assume that drivers do not regard bikes as road vehicles, but rather obstacles to be negotiated, hence the normal rules of the road do not apply

Bikes and “road vehicles” are all potential obstacles to be negotiated, I don’t see the distinction.

You don’t mention what you did when you became aware of the approaching ambulance?

 

[Andy McNish]

It won't happen until city and town centres and the routes into them prioritise pedestrians and cyclists (and trams and buses)over cars.

Planners should first ask - how do cyclists get in from the suburbs to the city centre without having to mix with road traffic?

And if the changes which need to be made to do this increase commute time for motor vehicles then so be it.

 

[flecc]

Planners should first ask - how do cyclists get in from the suburbs to the city centre without having to mix with road traffic?

And if the changes which need to be made to do this increase commute time for motor vehicles then so be it.

Politically very difficult though. Nationally there's well over 30 million drivers, almost all driving frequently. There's only 2 million claiming to cycle regularly, and most don't cycle anywhere near as regularly as drivers drive.

It has begun to happen in London in a small way with one segregated route from West London into the centre, but London doesn't have the imbalance noted above. We have much lower car ownership rate than the rest of the country and a high level of cycle commuting.

Somehow the rest of the country needs to achieve the same first. Here it was the very high cost of the vehicle congestion charge that did the trick, but there's resistance to that elsewhere. Traffic jammed Manchester rejected the idea for example.
.

 

[iRider]

Politically very difficult though. Nationally there's well over 30 million drivers, almost all driving frequently. There's only 2 million claiming to cycle regularly, and most don't cycle anywhere near as regularly as drivers drive.

It has begun to happen in London in a small way with one segregated route from West London into the centre, but London doesn't have the imbalance noted above. We have much lower car ownership rate than the rest of the country and a high level of cycle commuting.

Somehow the rest of the country needs to achieve the same first. Here it was the very high cost of the vehicle congestion charge that did the trick, but there's resistance to that elsewhere. Traffic jammed Manchester rejected the idea for example.
.

I don’t think the rest of the country will ever achieve any sort of car ownership parity with inner London. The public transport system in London is not even close to being mirrored anywhere else in the country.

 

[flecc]

I don’t think the rest of the country will ever achieve any sort of car ownership parity with inner London. The public transport system in London is not even close to being mirrored anywhere else in the country.

There's a link between cycling, public transport and the congestion charge in this.

Our congestion charge brought a huge increase in both cycling and public transport. For example, our bus fleet which had declined like that in the rest of the country, to a low of 4500, has now reached double that at 9000. And the increased demand for public transport is bringing rail improvements too.

Those increases are far larger than the decline in car ownership, so the congestion charge is the important element.

Clearly other cities need to consider that method and not just reject it as Manchester did.
.

 

[trevor brooker]

"Out of interest, do you drive a car?"
My ebike is my primary method of transport now, but my wife is disabled & if she needs transporting I drive her car.
I was taught advanced driving by Police driving instructors, & have driven cars, vans, articulated HGVs & double decker buses.
So I'm not anti-car, I just expect a basic standard of courtesy that is the same whether i'm walking, driving or riding.

 

[trevor brooker]

"Bikes and “road vehicles” are all potential obstacles to be negotiated, I don’t see the distinction."

I was trying to guess why some drivers need to overtake a bike in front of them, but then fail to realise that they are overtaking another vehicle & hence need to check their mirror before commencing their manoeuvre.

"You don’t mention what you did when you became aware of the approaching ambulance?"

I slowed down, then pulled over to the side of the road.

 

[iRider]

There's a link between cycling, public transport and the congestion charge in this.

Our congestion charge brought a huge increase in both cycling and public transport. For example, our bus fleet which had declined like that in the rest of the country, to a low of 4500, has now reached double that at 9000. And the increased demand for public transport is bringing rail improvements too.

Those increases are far larger than the decline in car ownership, so the congestion charge is the important element.

Clearly other cities need to consider that method and not just reject it as Manchester did.
.

If Manchester already had an underground system like London does. If it had the investment in infrastructure, if it had been as densely populated as London was making car ownership prohibitive if not impossible then it’s a fair criticism of Manchester’s rejection. In the real world, other than the fact both London and Manchester are cities there is no comparison that would make it viable in today’s economic climate.

This is a prime example of the north south decide failing to comprehend just how fortunate London is.

 

[flecc]

If Manchester already had an underground system like London does. If it had the investment in infrastructure, if it had been as densely populated as London was making car ownership prohibitive if not impossible then it’s a fair criticism of Manchester’s rejection. In the real world, other than the fact both London and Manchester are cities there is no comparison that would make it viable in today’s economic climate.

I'm trying to illustrate that a start has to be made somewhere, not just saying No to solutions. And your comparisons are just plain wrong.

Only the very centre of London is so densely populated that car ownership becomes somewhat difficult but not impossible. London covers 400 square miles and over most of it is well spaced out with still plenty of vacant space for cars.

Yes, London at three times the population of Greater Manchester has its underground, but smaller Manchester has an excellent tram system which London still doesn't have with a small exception.

And as for mentioning the economic climate making a congestion charge impossible, the charge is a huge source of income to improve public transport. That's what we've done with it, buying all those buses, greatly expanding the Docklands Light Railway, building a new east-west tram system across far South London, putting in cycling facilities and upgrading the Underground.

So as I've illustrated, a start has to be made somewhere and the congestion charge was our start to help with road congestion and reverse our decline in public transport at the time.

No-one asked us, we just got dumped with it, but it's been a great success and it's being expanded, as are other London charging zones.

Manchester's big mistake was to ask the people if they wanted one! How much more daft could that be?
.

 

[iRider]

I'm trying to illustrate that a start has to be made somewhere, not just saying No to solutions. And your comparisons are just plain wrong.

Only the very centre of London is so densely populated that car ownership becomes somewhat difficult but not impossible. London covers 400 square miles and over most of it is well spaced out with still plenty of vacant space for cars.

Yes, London at three times the population of Greater Manchester has its underground, but smaller Manchester has an excellent tram system which London still doesn't have with a small exception.

And as for mentioning the economic climate making a congestion charge impossible, the charge is a huge source of income to improve public transport. That's what we've done with it, buying all those buses, greatly expanding the Docklands Light Railway, building a new east-west tram system across far South London, putting in cycling facilities and upgrading the Underground.

So as I've illustrated, a start has to be made somewhere and the congestion charge was our start to help with road congestion and reverse our decline in public transport at the time.

No-one asked us, we just got dumped with it, but it's been a great success and it's being expanded, as are other London charging zones.

Manchester's big mistake was to ask the people if they wanted one! How much more daft could that be?
.

You miss the considerable shortcomings of a tram system that was not wanted and failed spectacularly to deliver even remotely upon the promised benefits. Not to mention the fact it was mainly built on existing roads compounding congestion for the vast majority who don’t happen to live or work right at each end. As for asking the people who live and work here and are the ones directly impacted by any congestion charge, only the blindly arrogant would consider that ‘daft’.

 

[flecc]

As for asking the people who live and work here and are the ones directly impacted by any congestion charge, only the blindly arrogant would consider that ‘daft’.

Nothing to do with arrogance, it stood to reason that if people are asked "would you like to pay to drive", they will answer no.

So asking is daft when there is a need for something that can be initially unpopular. I'm glad we weren't asked, given all the huge benefits that followed.

Still, if Manchester wants to keep it's problems and do nothing about them, it's their call. I see no grounds for helping them if they don't want to help themselves as well.
.

 

[iRider]

Nothing to do with arrogance, it stood to reason that if people are asked "would you like to pay to drive", they will answer no.

So asking is daft when there is a need for something that can be initially unpopular. I'm glad we weren't asked, given all the huge benefits that followed.

Still, if Manchester wants to keep it's problems and do nothing about them, it's their call. I see no grounds for helping them if they don't want to help themselves as well.
.

I rest my case.

 

[Andy McNish]

You miss the considerable shortcomings of a tram system that was not wanted and failed spectacularly to deliver even remotely upon the promised benefits. Not to mention the fact it was mainly built on existing roads compounding congestion for the vast majority who don’t happen to live or work right at each end. As for asking the people who live and work here and are the ones directly impacted by any congestion charge, only the blindly arrogant would consider that ‘daft’.

I happen to commute in to city centre Manchester from the suburbs (and have since 1989) and almost never drive in.

First 16 years I took the bus from Levenshulme (occasionally the train) and the last 13 I have taken the train from Stockport (and since March have connuted in on fine days - almost all off road - on my ebike).
I also use the tram and free bus to get across town fairly frequently as my work is a mile or so from Piccadilly.

The public transport commute in Manchester and its suburbs is fine - it's the Cheshire set clogging up the M56 and Princess Parkway that are the commuting nightmare. That is their problem for wanting to live in Alderley Edge IMHO.

Driving into the city centre from Stockport at rush hour will take about one hour.
My train commute takes about 50 minutes with trains every 5 minutes or so (I can shave it to 40 mins or so if I park near the station or take the free bus at the other end to get across town). It costs about £900 a year.
The e-bike is 60 minutes door to door (about 3km on road, 17km off road).

We do own 2 cars but do only about 4k mileage a year on each. I only you the car for work if I have to visit clients out of town.

The public transport commute is far better and less stressful than in London.

 

[grldtnr]

When it comes down to it,. Is for some to campaign for change, to convince others there is a better way .
It is very selfish of the Uber rich to commute short distances in expensive uneconomic cars, just because they want to show off there conspicuous cusumptive wealth,why do that in a car that costs as much as a poorer person s flat?
They create problems for themselves ,just because they wish to show whealth.